I'm Mormon, or more specifically I am a member of the same church as Mitt Romney. I personally believe him when he says he holds his faith dear and he strives to live by it. He has repeatedly diverted specific questions about his religion in a similar manner as this. Here he was obviously not attempting to make a critique on Mormon theology or doctrine. He was redirecting the question to his point that specifics of the religion of any candidate should not be a topic of discussion as this enables a religious litmus test.
Romney is not trying to distance himself from his faith. It would be a major mistake at this point in the campaign to try and refocus attention on his religion after it has largely been back burnered after his wonderful Faith in America speech.
I doubt other Mormons are getting too worried about this comment. It sounds more like others trying to encourage the religious conversation again. |
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He could have said to the reporter. "I'm not going to discuss the faith issue." But that's NOT what he did.
Nobody said they didn't believe him when he says he strives to live by his faith. But if Huckabee were to say that God didn't speak to anyone since Moses - every evangelical in the nation would denounce it as heresy.
No one is attempting to refocus the discussion to religion - MITT was the one who chose to answer the question - and as much as Hugh has been screaming about accountability for every jot and tittle other candidates have noted - this is a fair question.
TRANSLATION: Stop telling me not to discuss faith! It happens to be important to me and as such is something I spend a great deal of time pondering... |
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A believing Latter-day Saint, I don't see any problem in Governor Romney's response to a religion-baiting interviewer who was trying to suggest that he would govern either as a tool of the Mormon hierarchy or a self-anointed prophet. When he said that God hadn't spoken to people since Moses "and a few others," he wasn't contradicting Mormon teachings. Instead, he was attempting to return the conversation to matters of politics and public policy -- where it ought always to have been.
The media should give the topic of Mormon theology a rest. They don't understand it, and it's not relevant. |
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Romney said "since Moses and some others".
How about showing the whole interview?
Anything for a story. About as good as the Ed Decker cartoons you posted.
"My Mormon readers insist on being counted as part of orthodox Christianity."
I reject wholeheartedly mainstream orthodox Christianity, I am a Christian. Kevin, what make you think that "mormons" are trying to be counted as orthodx Christians?
We arent creedal Christians, we are Christians. |
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First of all Mitt mentions "perhaps others" that have seen God. Listen to it again! He has repeatedly said that his prophet governs his sphere of influence which is the church. The prophet cant make laws in America. Mitt has said this over and over again. Mitt was trying to say that God hasnt appeared to him. No matter what religion you are its a crazy hypothetical question to ask. What if God talked to you? First fo all if Mitt answers it he looks crazy and since he has never talked to God that is a good response. When responding to non-mormons one has to put it into their terms. IF I go on speaking about the prophet Alma in the Book of Mormon you probably wont understand. Mitt has said on numerous occasions that he believes his faith. He has to answer that he beleives that God talks to Prophets in his Temple interviews. It really shows how people are grasping at strings to take him down. It is also funny that the canidate that is pushing his faith is Huckabee and no one asks him stupid questions like this. Huckabee is the one running for Pastor and Chief. |
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"But if Huckabee were to say that God didn't speak to anyone since Moses"
Did Romney say that?
Watch again and listen.
He said Moses or perhaps others..never insinuating that God never spoke during New Testament times or to Joseph Smith.
Can we get a full interview? |
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I listened to the KSL (Utah) broadcast of the excerpt of the original Boston interview where the question was to put Mitt in the cross-hairs of a "problem" that was silly. Mitt used Bible-based language to answer the question-that there would be no problem.
How silly. Read the entire quote. LDS people like myself understand his answer. Mitt isn't proclaiming himself a prophet because he believes in God.
What a strange view of God to think that He would put any president of the US in a double bind situation! Remember our motto: In God we trust. And we do. (Including us LDS folks.)
Isn't there any real news? This exercise in trying to chase Mitt up a tree with a loaded question was tiring. Give it a rest. Mitt is a God-fearing person and an American Patriot who will make an excellent, competent President. |
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That the Holy Spirit indwells, informs, guides, and even speaks... and of course we speak to God through prayer - something that it appears that both Mormon and Christians do hold in common...
Its part of what Christians DO believe.
And belief systems are identified by what they do and do not include...
Therefore - if Mormons view themselves as Christians - wouldn't they then embrace Christian practice as pretty much all other branches of Christianity do?
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The Only True God and Jesus Christ Whom He Hath Sent
Elder Jeffrey R. Holland
Of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles
http://lds.org/conference/talk/display/0,5232,23-1-775-15,0 0.html
So any criticism that The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints does not hold the contemporary Christian view of God, Jesus, and the Holy Ghost is not a comment about our commitment to Christ but rather a recognition (accurate, I might add) that our view of the Godhead breaks with post–New Testament Christian history and returns to the doctrine taught by Jesus Himself. |
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to the contrary - of Mitt's abilities and skills...
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and good...
Except that it was Christ himself who promised the sending of the Holy Spirit who would serve as comforter.
Thusly Christ DID teach the reality of the Holy Spirit - even to the extent of the personal nature of His ministry to us...
Thusly CHRISTIAN teaching includes the persons of the God the Father and the Holy Spirit.
It is extra-biblical teaching that holds otherwise... |
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"Therefore - if Mormons view themselves as Christians - wouldn't they then embrace Christian practice as pretty much all other branches of Christianity do?"
What are the decided Christian practices?
Im not sure all Cristians embrace all of these Christian practices.
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"Thusly CHRISTIAN teaching includes the persons of the God the Father and the Holy Spirit.
It is extra-biblical teaching that holds otherwise..."
Im not clear on what you mean. |
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Every TV station is in a life and death race to keep its ratings up. The Boston station and the Utah station are no exceptions. Both were stretching the information taffy a little too thin to try and generate some controversy - where there was none. Silly posturing by commentators.
Mitt was asked a question and he answered it giving an Old Testament reference point of Moses who had a profound experience talking with God. Many faiths embrace that past scriptural event as a foundation. Mitt was being wise to reference Moses as one who did talk with God.
How fast do you think on your feet? Think your answers in all corners of your life could be half as good as Mitt's? I proud of him - not distancing myself from his candidacy. I've been a Mitt watcher for years as some of my family knew and worked for him in Boston. Another was a volunteer in the SLC Olympics. I knew he was a man of his word way before he was running for POTUS. Go Mitt! |
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"TRANSLATION: Stop telling me not to discuss faith! It happens to be important to me and as such is something I spend a great deal of time pondering..."
It can't be that important, after your gleeful participation in the lying and smearing a fine Christian like Ron Paul.
Ponder all you want. After this, I suspect the LORD will want to have a long chat with you for all your evil doing this election. |
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I'm LDS and have been all my life. I'm pretty close to Mormons in the west, the south, and the east. I assure you that we understand what MItt was saying. We don't believe that God will ever tell the prophet to interfere in Government affairs. His calling is to lead the church not the country. I can't imagine any Mormon voting for Mitt because they believe God will talk to him, or tell President Hinckley to talk to him and tell him what to do. I'm sure he will pray for guidance as do most Presidents, but that does not mean he will hear the voice of God telling him what to do. Anyone who knows anything about the LDS church (unless they learned it at a ridiculous "unmasking mormonism" night at some evangelical church) knows that the whole concept of keeping government affairs separate from church affairs is very important to Mormons. Mitt said "Moses and perhaps others" as a way to move the interviewer past the religious questions that are blasted at him again and again. Be assured that while not all Mormons will vote for Mitt Romney we are all pretty confident in the sincerity of his beliefs. After all, he has served as a Bishop and a Stake President (both of which are callings that are served for a few years only, without any pay, but lots and lots of hard work) and we all have had many Bishops and Stake Presidents that we love and admire as truly outstanding individuals. When a Mormon hears that Mitt Romney has held both of those callings - it tells us an awful lot about him. But this is probably hard for non-Mormons to understand since they mostly are not used to working with an unpaid clergy.
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"Thusly CHRISTIAN teaching includes the persons of the God the Father and the Holy Spirit.
It is extra-biblical teaching that holds otherwise..."
The Creeds are extra-biblical, and the LDS view of the Godhead is clearly shown in the Bible and in the writings of early Christians.
..."if one says we are not Christians because we do not hold a fourth- or fifth-century view of the Godhead, then what of those first Christian Saints, many of whom were eyewitnesses of the living Christ, who did not hold such a view either?" |
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in the genuineness of Mitt's statements about his experiences and principles shows through.
It was a common experience for LDS people to remember what they were doing/where they were when they heard the announcements that all worthy men could hold the priesthood. Many of us shed unbidden tear of joy! Sorry if you can't accept that fact. To claim that Mitt wasn't being genuine about his personal response is a judgment call. Many of us (I'm older now) have waited our lifetime for that day.
Don't compare Mitt's practice of his faith to Ted's blatant disregard for the teachings of his church.
The idea that Utah Mormons are a separate category of Mormons from those in Asia or any other place in the world where there are LDS congregations is to misunderstand this church. And trying to pit Midwest Mormons against Mitt was the same issue.
We are united world wide in our faith in the Savior and in the teachings of the Holy Bible. We believe in the Holy Spirit and in the principles of faith, repentance, and baptism and in a daily effort to keep the commandments. In that general sense we claim kinship in the wonderful world of shared Christianity. We value life and freedom.
Yes, we claim other teachings which cause anger and misunderstanding/misrepresentation at times because of our claim that God has spoken again. But we are peaceful about that and teach tolerance towards other creeds and respect for the laws of the land (no matter where we live we are law abiding citizens). We sent out young sons and daughters as missionaries globally with this good news that Jesus has re established his church. You are free to dismiss or disregard what we believe. |
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"My Mormon readers insist on being counted as part of orthodox Christianity."
Really?
I wonder.
I, for one, DON'T.
I declare that I'm a Christian, but as for being a part of mainstream "orthodox Christianity" I happily declare that I'm NOT. I agree with that mainstream on many doctrines, and on all or virtually all moral positions, but our differences remain and are precious to me. |
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Tears of unbidden pain should have precipitated a ruling in 1978...
To fundamentally not understand the equality of all men and women - and to so project it into the mainstream of any faith system as late as 1978 was a disgrace.
Consider the Christian - with whom you wish to identify with - William Wilberforce...
(And do not read this post as an indictment of Mitt's character on the issue - having spoken with the Governor many times I DO believe him.)
But this "tears of joy" stuff seems a pretty passive position to what should have been a reformation like movement to cleanse the Mormon doctrine so as to include the equality of all men before God.
We heretical devils - biblical Christians - certainly did... |
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Christ condemned people who try to define Him to others. He told the Scribes and Pharisees they were hypocrites when they tried to convince the people that He was not the Christ...so do you today who try to define who can and cant have HIM in their hearts!
Mormons live Christianity better than most frankly...They were first on hand after Katrina, and first to be there to clean up last month after the San Diego fires. They spend millions of dollars each year on humanitarian aide and educational services to people around the world, JUST LIKE THE LUTHERANS AND THE CATHOLICS AND ALL THE OTHER SOCIAL SERVICE agencies, because, just like them, Mormons try to put the gospel of Christ into action, as the Savior requested. That is CHRISTIANITY!!!!!
You CANNOT claim Him for me! Only He claims who is and is not His! Its hypocrisy and arrogance for you to say (or think) otherwise! Surely all you "Christians" can see that?
This is a contest to elect the President...cant we treat it like that....If I'd wanted a revival, I'd go to Tennessee and have me one!
If you think the bigotted beliefs of others is not an issue in this race, go to realclearpolitics.com and read the latest article from Reid Wilson..."How Far He's Come". Read all the way through to the quote from the Iowans who won't vote for Romney because...we'll "I'd rather not say...cause your'e recording me"! If that aint bigotry, don't know what is, and that's what Huckabee was after with the "satan and Jesus were brothers" comment....and its also what will do him in politically. (See latest IOWA poll with Romney leading by 9 points! |
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Huckabee has undergone more investigation of his faith by like 3 to 1 of anything Mitt has faced.
Not to mention the nearly three week long Drudgefest in which the typical top bar item was a Huckabee faith hit...
Has Mitt endured some unfair questions about his faith - some. Has he been the pure focus of anti-faith bigotry in this election cycle - NOT EVEN CLOSE.
And it's not bigoted to say so! |
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No one is attempting to take Christ away from you. So stop it with the victim stuff. I've dealt with that long enough on this blog for fair minded people to know the distinction.
It is YOU that is trying to force an evangelical - me - into your extra-biblical worldview. I don't deem your worldview authoritative hence I will not recognize it as such.
I do so on the basis of purely theological grounds.
And on the words of the Jesus Christ of the Bible. That His truth would be a stumbling block. It would be divisive, and it would be exclusive.
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anything better to do?
I'm a Mormon and I find nothing offensive, offputting, or inconsistent with this remark.
Look at the context.
He's running for President, not Pastor, so I'm glad he's turning the discussion back to relevancy.
Ask him if he thinks Joseph Smith saw Jesus in 1820. 100 bucks says he'll say yes.
Though it wouldn't be an appropriate question to ask him, just as it wouldn't be appropriate for any of us to ask it of an employee we were interviewing for a job.
The job is president. The interviewing about the minutiae of religion and religious doctrine is just as inappropriate in this setting as it would be in a job interview.
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KMC As to your assertion that its 3 to 1 in favor of Huck on the Faith issue, I'd love to see real numbers....cause I dont believe that.
Three weeks from Drudge on Huckabee versus 8 months of So Cons on Romney? That's an easy comparison.
As to being the victim...Didnt mean to sound like one...that's the whole point...I dont let you or anyone else define me as Christian ...or victim. I sure dont feel like a victim...If He is for me, who can be against me? |
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"It is YOU that is trying to force an evangelical - me - into your extra-biblical worldview."
Im sorry, what extra biblical creed must I believe to be considered a real Christian?
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Kevin, I accept your premise that inequality in all its forms is not to be passively tolerated. I believe that is what you are saying to me.
There is also a readiness factor.
How many centuries has it taken for women to be equal before the law with men? As a young girl I quickly saw that the word history could be taken apart to mean "his story" or mankind's story. I felt hurt as the culture told the stories of men, not of men and women, generally speaking. I understand Hillary's drive to be President because she is female.
Did the world in general have to catch up with the American ideal that all men (no color test) are created equal and endowed by their Creator...?
Why did anciently Paul need to teach Peter that the Gentiles were worthy to receive the Good News? Peter was a good man. Why did Jesus say first to the Jews and then to the Gentiles?
You know that the LDS church from its earliest days baptizes all who apply; there were earnest, free Blacks who were early members and came West. You probably know that Joseph Smith was running for President on an anti slavery platform at the time he was killed.
Was the problem that the early American and multi national saints as a group were not ready to overcome their various cultural prejudices in the midst of escaping with their lives?
Were early church leaders less open than Joseph Smith? Were the pressures on the territories wanting to enter the US as either a slave or non-slave state part of the crazy mix of the times? And then you had a very bloody Civil War that, without Lincoln, would have strangled this young nation.
Was God waiting for us all to grow up? I don't know.
LDS people (around the world) are law abiding. I raise the question of "Did we all (around the world) need to catch up so that God could get on with His work for all people?"
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I do not care what Mikes religion is. I do not care what Mitt's religion is. I do not care what the other candidates religion is. I care about ISSUES, and I care about what the candidates have said/done in the past. I'm looking for honesty, and I'm not seeing it.
For those of you that have had the pleasure of missing my postings, let me repeat.
Mitt is a RINO!
Mike is a RINO!
Rudy is a RINO!
John is a RINO!
For a strong Conservative leader, vote for Fred! |
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Recently, an apostle of God told us to get active and get the truth out on the blogs about our beloved faith. Thank you, Wise woman. I appreciate your posts more than you can know. Recenlty, I have had my own testimony strenghted by watching and learning more about my faith. I see where there are churches pretty ticked off as their members peel off and join us in our march forward. No paid clergy. How can that be? President Romeny (a title he will hold for life) Has served honorably. Both as a young Missionary in France, and then as Bishop and a Stake President (thus, the title). All required time from his family, his career, his pursuit of his worldly desires, to serve (without pay) the children of our Heavely Father.
I will define the Christ I have faith in. Others do not have that right.
Again, I'm glad to see members coming out and really explaining the church in ways that have never before been used. Imagine if Joseph Smith had the Internet! |
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Kevin,
You seem to be pulling at straws here. Of course members of the LDS church believe in inspiration from the Holy Ghost, and I can't see in what light you are reading Romney's comments to suggest that he is claiming otherwise.
Mike Huckabee has claimed his campaign is particularly blessed and directed by God. Mitt has not made such a claim. Does that somehow mean he can't be truly faithful? I am trying to understand here, because otherwise, I see a non-issue and an attempt to find controversy where non lies. Worse, there is the undertones of serious contempt. |
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Kevin said: "My Mormon readers insist on being counted as part of orthodox Christianity."
WTF (freak)!? I really don't understand where this statement is coming from. You either have a fairly unusual set of "Mormon readers" or you are simply making this up. Mormons want nothing to do with Orthodox Christianity. And frankly, I couldn't give two squats whether you think I'm Christian or not. Accept me, don't accept me, it makes no difference to me, and it'll all get sorted out soon enough.
Kevin said: "No one is attempting to take Christ away from you. So stop it with the victim stuff." But then he said: "It is YOU that is trying to force an evangelical - me - into your extra-biblical worldview."
I don't see the integrity in painting someone as a victim (a picture they were not trying to paint), and then turning around and pulling out the victim card yourself. Isn't that somewhat duplicitous.
Kevin said: "Mitt's claim could be written off as a moment of jesting - but then that draws into credibility the claim that he takes his faith seriously and endeavors to live by it."
What, why? Why can't someone take their faith seriously but still joke about it all the time? You are setting up a false dilemma here, which is a logical fallacy.
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Kevin said: "Huckabee has undergone more investigation of his faith by like 3 to 1 of anything Mitt has faced."
Again, WTF (freak)?! Kevin, Mitt was in this race getting flack for his religion back when Huckabee was still a presidential candidate in embryo. And while I know you like to point out examples of Mitt fielding questions about his religion to show that he discusses his religion as much as Huckabee, there is a very real difference between fielding questions and producing an ad where you call yourself a "Christian leader." A very real difference.
Kevin said: "To be honest it doesn't much surprise me that the East Coasters didn't get their necks bent because of his response. I mean do people on the east coast really connect religion and life for the most part? But it does seem telling to me that the Utah brand of Mormonism would have theological problems with Mitt's laugh it off approach"
This is a really strange statement. Mormons in the east connect religion to life as much as Mormons in the west do. I've lived on both coasts, within different regions, and its all the same my man. This idea of a "Utah brand" of theology is bologna. While there are definitely some religious cultural differences in Utah (which I have also lived in), those differences do not extend to matters of theology.
But honestly, the kicker of this entire blog is that you misconstrued what Romney said. He said God hasn't spoken to anyone since Moses and some others, or something similar. You are acting like he said God hasn't spoken to anyone at all since Moses. Thats just dishonest Kevin, there are no two ways about it.
You seem to be trying to fabricate an issue, where no real issue exists. I'm not sure why you keep doing this. I have a hard time believing its because you are trying to be objective, as you claim. I think its more likely that you like to provoke Mormons and then chastise them for defending themselves. |
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In my 11:40pm post, I meant to say "Why can't someone take their faith seriously but still joke about it?" (not all the time). |
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Kevin McCullough wrote;
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"...especially since it calls directly into question the reliability of his story about crying when he heard the news that black people were finally equal in the Mormon church."
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Kevin, I don't know what the obsession by evangelicals is about the Mormon church and black clergy up until the 1970s, but I don't think that evangelicals want to go down that road, considering the awful history of segregation in the Bible Belt until the 1960s.
Seriously, McCullough, theological divides have NO place in public discussions about Presidential politics---we're electing a Commander in Chief, not a Pastor in Chief.
Once you start legitimizing the vetting of the theology of Mormon candidates, the slippery slope will lead to MSMers vetting the theology of candidates who share your faith, too.
(And of course, they'll only do it to Republican candidates.) |
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