Friday, May 11, 2007
Posted by:
Kevin McCullough
at
1:50 PM
We've already covered two important issues of distinction between Mormons and Christians. The first was the Authority of Sacred Texts, The second - the non-negotiable doctrine of man's depravity/original sin.
Of all the reasons Mormons have pleaded with Christians to "please call us Christians too" has been the idea that "saying we love 'Jesus Christ' " should in fact be enough. This thinking isolated as its own argument is utterly ridiculous - and under such would have made the Branch Davidians or the Jim Jones followers "Christians" as well.
The issue of "loving Jesus Christ" depends fully upon WHO Jesus Christ is. And the Jesus Christ of Mormonism is a different Jesus - one of Joseph Smith's imagination - than is the Jesus of the Bible.
Let's examine some of the differences.
Biblical Christians believe that Jesus Christ, God the Son, existed eternally. Jesus Christ always was, and always will be. He existed before Abraham, and before Adam. The biblical term of "firstborn over all creation" in the biblical text is the word prototokos which means "preeminent one, or first in rank." Christians also believe that Jesus Christ is the "only begotten" Son.
Mormons believe their Jesus was "born of heavenly parents." This belief stems from another doctrinal issue the belief that the Mormon God the Father had many spirit wives and that Jesus was conceived in the sexual union with one of these wives. Thus the Mormon Jesus is born of a procreative act. Thusly they also hold that there were many other "spirit children" of the Mormon God the Father.
Lastly Christians clearly believe the biblical text when it ascribes attributes to Lucifer, who became Satan after is fall - as a created angel - a cherub. Mormons believe that Lucifer was actually a spirit brother to the Mormon Jesus.
Kirby Anderson states it this way:
Mormonism teaches that Jesus and Lucifer were involved in planning mankind's eternal destiny. In order to attain godhood like our heavenly parents, the spirit children needed to leave the presence of their heavenly Father, inhabit a physical body, and live a worthy life. Elohim knew that mankind would sin and thus require a savior to pay for sin and show us how to return to our heavenly father. At the heavenly council, Jesus and Lucifer proposed their plans. Lucifer offered to go to earth and be the savior but he wanted to force everyone to be saved and do everything himself. Jesus desired to give man the freedom of choice. The Father chose Jesus' plan. Angered by the decision, Lucifer persuaded one third of the spirit children to rebel and a war in heaven took place between Satan's forces and Jesus and His followers. Lucifer was defeated, cast out of heaven, and denied the right to inhabit mortal bodies.
This makes for some fascinating imaginative story telling...
But to Christians its blatant apostate heresy.
No one on this forum has said that Mormons must change their beliefs. They are much allowed as we all are to hold those beliefs in their hearts that the cherish most. But Biblical Christians do not worship the Mormon Jesus, and Mormons do not worship the Biblical Jesus. And it is heresy to Christianity to say otherwise.
And there is not getting past this divide. Thus Mormons place themselves outside the circle of Christianity and firmly inside the circle of Mormonism.
Ding Ding Ding!
Let the games begin! |
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You are dead wrong on Mormon theology.
This is a quote from your article.
"Biblical Christians believe that Jesus Christ, God the Son, existed eternally. Jesus Christ always was, and always will be. He existed before Abraham, and before Adam. The biblical term of "firstborn over all creation" in the biblical text is the word prototokos which means "preeminent one, or first in rank." Christians also believe that Jesus Christ is the "only begotten" Son. "
This comment on Christian doctrine is absolutely completely Mormon Doctrine. The problem with you Mormon Bashers is that you do not know Mormon Doctrine. Secondly, you then proceed to set up a straw man that came straight from "The God Makers" which was never very accurate.
If you are going to put it in print you had better get it right before you make yourself look even less informed than you are. |
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Exactly. I could of not said it better.
Freedom Isn't Free
Damcon1 (SW/MTS) AD USN
Mid Atlantic Regional Maintenance Center (MARMC)
We Fix Ships |
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Mormons believe the Mormon Jesus as procreated. |
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And concerning the "brotherhood" of Christ and Lucifer? |
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To know all things that are in and not included in the bible. I wish I had the PERFECT understand you seem to have. I wish I knew Gods mind and the history of His existence.
Just how do you KNOW it did not happen that way? |
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is nominated. But I KNOW what Mormons believe and I know they are not Christians. My goal when I talk to them about their "faith" is to convince them to convert to Christianity. I would do the same with Romney if I ever had the opportunity. That's the religious side of it.
On the POLITICAL side, Romney is possibly the best qualified of ALL the candidates on BOTH sides of the aisle. Sad but true... |
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I wonder if Mormons seriously embrace the Apostles Creed and the Nicene Creed in the way that many Christians do. I say this because these creeds affirm the divinity of Jesus Christ. They affirm that Jesus was not made, but begotten. Thus meaning that Jesus Christ is co-eternal with the Father. The fundamental belief of Christianity is the fact that Jesus Christ is God. He is not just a mere agent of God or just a savior or a mediator, but Jesus is God along with the Father and the Holy Spirit. The three persons make up the monotheistic God Christians worship today. The fact that we believe that Jesus is God is what seperates us from Jews who don't believe this and from Muslims who believe Jesus was a prophet. Also the canon of the Bible has been closed for centuries and the Book of Mormon is almost a couple of hundred years old. Many other sources that have had claims to be authoritative outside of the Bible have been disproved by many prominent scholars. Therefore what would make the Book of Mormon correct? There is so much today, but many books have been writen in regards to these subjects. I could recommend sources from current scholars such as Ravi Zacharias, Norman Geisler, William Lane Craig, and J.P Moreland. |
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I'm trying to understand where these "requirements" for Being A Christian come from. It would seem to me that the only person who is authorized to determine who is Christian and who is not is Christ Himself.
It's really not that hard from a philosophical point of view to show that "traditional Christianity," as defined by Mormonism's detractors, is heretical, given that it assimilated Hellenistic assumptions about the hierarchies of being, etc. not too long after the apostles died. You could even argue that Christians were diluting the Gospel prior to the the apostles' deaths.
My Jesuit-trained, devout Catholic professor who specializes in the history of ideas, insists that neo-Platonism IS NOT FOUND IN THE BIBLE. Not in the New Testament and not in the Old. He's not alone: as I was studying Christian mysticism, I discovered that this was the consensus, and I concur. Interestingly enough, the Book of Mormon is also utterly devoid of neo-Platonism, which is a pretty neat trick, given that the barely educated Joseph Smith had no idea what neo-Platonism even was, much less how to tease it out of the Christianity he'd been raised with.
Now, you can argue, if you like, that neo-Platonism was revealed by God to the heathen and that God willed the merging of the two, but there is no scriptural evidence to show that He intended that to happen; ergo, no one is bound by that theory.
Can you show me where Christ insists that to be Christian, you have to believe certain things about his pre-mortal life? We believe that Christ was Yahweh of the Old Testament before his mortal birth. Is that heresy? Does he say that we have to believe ANYTHING about metaphysics?
I don't know why we should be beholden to doctrines that were not articulated by Christ or the apostles.
We believe that Christ was the Firstborn of the Father in the spirit and the Only Begotten in the flesh. We believe that He is the Father of our rebirth, which is requisite for salvation. We believe that we are saved not on our own merits but on the merits of Christ, who performed the great and last blood sacrifice. Without His atonement, upon birth, our lives would be one long, twisted decent into depravity -- if our depraved mothers didn't strangle us in our infancy -- and that upon dying we'd all go straight to hell, forever, AND WE'D DESERVE IT.
If it were not for the Atonement of Christ, we could not perform a single good deed. No amount of baptisms, charitable donations or whatnot would cleanse our souls of filthiness.
There is WAY too much misinformation floating around about our beliefs. Please, if you're really itching to tear us apart, read this website first...
http://www.jefflindsay.com/LDS_Intro.shtml
...which answers lots of basic questions in depth.
We ARE Christians. What we are not is PROTESTANTS. And given that among modern Christianity there is a multitude of doctrines concerning Christ and baptism and faith and works and grace and salvation, it seems kinda strange that our differences should be singled out for exclusion. |
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I agree with you and I will vote for Romney if he is the Republican nominee. I won't vote for Rudi "the abortion supporter" or McCain who has tried to stifle the voice of the common person so that we can't particiapate fully in the political process. If a good candidate that is a born-again Christian runs, then I will definitely vote for him or her, but I will NEVER vote for a DUMocrat socialist/humanist/communist/Islamo-loving candidate. |
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btw, I have no problem with Mitt Romney. If Fred Thompson does not jump in the race, then i would gladly vote for Romney. Honestly, I think Romney is the best qualified candidate maybe even more qualified than Thompson, but it is still too early to tell. Personally, I would love to see Thompson/Romney for 2008 and I don't really mind which one would be president and which one would be vice-president. |
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I'm not saying it didn't.
WHAT I'M SAYING IS - Christian's believe it happened one way, Mormon's believe it happened another way.
That's all... |
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We're electing a Commander-in-Chief, NOT a Theologian-in-Chief.
While a person's personal theology certainly informs their morality and worldview, it affects different outcomes in different people.
Therefore, on Election Day, rather than obsessing about a person's theology, we examine their voting record and political philosophy.
For example;
Teddy Kennedy & Rick Santorum are both Catholics.
They share the same theological beliefs, however, they don't share the same political beliefs.
Chuck Schumer & Dennis Prager are both Jews.
They share similar theological beliefs, however, they don't share the same political beliefs.
John Edwards & George W. Bush are both Protestant Christians.
They share pretty similar theological beliefs, however, they don't share the same political beliefs.
Harry Reid & Orrin Hatch are both Mormons.
They share the same theological beliefs, however, they don't share the same political beliefs.
As you can see from my examples, people of the same theology can arrive at different political beliefs.
And equally important is that people of DIFFERING THEOLOGY can arrive at SIMILAR political beliefs.
Thus, a premise which holds that because Mitt Romney believes in the Book of Mormon, he therefore cannot be trusted to make sound decisions in the political arena----well, such a thesis simply does not hold water.
By the way, the state of Utah---the state with the most Mormons---happens to vote more consistently Republican than other red states which have a much larger Evangelical Christian electorate than exists in Utah.
In the pluralist arena of American politics, the bottom line is how a politician governs or votes---it's not what breakfast cereal he eats, not what kind of novels he reads, and not which church service he attends. |
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Colossians 1:16 tells us that Christ created all things so how could Lucifer be a brother? I believe if you read Bruce R. McConkie's writings along with Spencer Kimball's they will all old true on Jesus and Lucifer being the offspring of their heavenly parents. So either the bible is wrong or Mormon theology is wrong. Discernment and faith. |
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I'm sorry to say, but Christianity is EXCLUSIVE. Christ said it himself that he is the only way to the Father(John 14:6). The biggest criticism of Christianity is that it is an exclusive belief system and Jesus Christ was exclusive. If you have read the New Testament, you see how Paul wrote in his letters about Christ clarifying his resurrection, the atoning work, and many other things. In other words, most of Paul's letters are about Christology. Christ was not the Yahweh of the Old Testament. Explain to me the baptism of Jesus, whose voice was that coming out of heaven? Or the transfiguration of Christ? Whose voice was that? If you say that Jesus was the Yahweh of the Old Testament, then you are saying that you do not believe in the Trinity or the Triune God and that is one of the fundamental beliefs of Christianity. Therefore you are not believing in the historic and classical christianity, which is still dominant today. A lot of blood has been shed for these beliefs, which would describe how important these beliefs are. If you read the New Testament, you are reading doctrines and about doctrines the whole way through. If you do not believe in the divinity of Jesus, then you cannot believe he is your savior as well and there is no way around it. |
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You and I are in complete agreement.
My argument is that Mitt Romney is a better person to vote for because of his character which is moral - than say Hillary Clinton who claims some sort of Christianity but has no character.
Saying that Mormons and Christians are different has nothing to do with whether or not Mitt Romney would make a good or even great president.
And unless Thompson gets in - it is likely that I will be voting for Mitt. |
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Well O.K. Lets just say that what the Ortodox Christians believe about Jesus is one thing, and What members of the Church of Jesus Christ believe are another.
Now Orthodox Christians must prove by scripture that what they believe about Jesus is in fact valid and accurate. They must prove that Orthodoxy is true.
Some things we and creedal or orthodox Christians have in common.
1. Jesus is an actual historical figure.
2. Jesus is God
3. Jesus suffered and died for our sins.
4. Jesus loves us.
5. Jesus is the Savior and redeemer of the World.
Frankly, the "different Jesus" thing is not an issue.
The doctrines taught by Jesus are the issue.
Latter-day Saints do not believe that Orthodox Christian doctrine is necessarily representative of nor supported by Bible teachings.
For an indepth discussion of this topic I refer you to the Pastore Blog of April 30. |
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Candidate A - Associates with crooked politicians, and consults with astrologists. He's had two Mistresses. He also chain smokes and drinks 8 to 10 martinis a day.
Candidate B - He was kicked out of office twice, sleeps until noon, used opium in college and drinks a quart of whiskey every evening.
Candidate C - He is a decorated war hero. He's a vegetarian, doesn't smoke, drinks an occasional beer and never cheated on his wife.
Candidate A is Franklin D. Roosevelt.
Candidate B is Winston Churchill.
Candidate C is Adolph Hitler.
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Portrayal of LDS biliefs.
According to LDS theology, Jesus presented the Father's plan. Lucifer countered by presenting a plan in opposition to that of the Father. He rebelled when his plan was rejected and was cast out. Thus the Scripture "How art thou fallen from heaven O Lucifer, son of the morning!"
Isaiah 14:12 |
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I appreciate your sincere questions. The LDS Church does not embrace the Nicean Creed, but wholeheartedly embraces the Bible. Are there difference of opinion on what various passages in the Bible mean? Of course, and you will find differences among all the various sects that worship Jesus Christ as Way, the Truth, and the Light.
You mentioned Ravi Zacharias as a scholarly source for information on theological topics. I would like to note that I consider him to be a great teacher, and while I do not agree with every element of his theology, I very much appreciate the kind way he treats people. He seeks to build on common beliefs, rather than using scripture or philosophy to tear people apart. In 2004 Ravi Zacharias was warmly received as he spoke in the Mormon Tabernacle in Salt Lake City. You might be interested in his own feelings regarding that event, found at
http://www.rzim.org/about/newstext.php?id=64.
Zacharias understands that this is a time when the fundamental teachings of Jesus Christ are assailed and ridiculed. Mormons, Evangelicals, Catholics, Jews, and good people of all faiths should focus on what unites them, and work together to preserve those basic freedoms and moral principles we all hold so dear. |
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Since they are extrabiblical you should not embrace them either based on the orthodox belief that the Bible is sufficient to explain the doctrines of God.
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Show me from the Bible that "in the beginning" means the BEGINNING OF EVERYTHING, and not for example the biginning of this solar system, or this earth. Until you can do that, the problem with Lucifer and Christ or the nature of God is up to interpretation. |
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So I guess it's how a man finishes his life. Not how he starts it that counts. Isn't repentence a wonderful thing? |
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POLITICS:
I have been a disaffected Democrat since 1984. I have no party but I have a vote and I ALWAYS cast it AGAINST my old party. My Christianity guides my political decisions. Romney has my vote if he is the nominee.
CHURCH:
I am a Christian. I am not a Christian Mormon; I am not a Christian Unitarian; I am not a Christian Scientologist. By the same token, a Scientologist is not a Christian; a Unitarian is not a Christian... and a Mormon is NOT a Christian. If a Mormon is a Christian, then a Christian is a Mormon. That's just the way it is.
CHURCH:
I'm sorry for Mormons who seem so insecure in their religion that they feel like they have to be a sub-part of the larger Christian community. Of course, I want Mormons and Unitarians and Scientologists to leave their respective belief systems and become Christian because of my enthusiastic adherance to the Great Commission.
POLITICS:
I want EVERY VOTING AMERICAN, regardless of their religion or atheism to cast their vote for Mitt Romney if he is the Republican nominee. His POLITICAL views are closer to MY political views than the views of any Democrat. |
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I obviously follow the Bible above anything else, but it cannot be denied that many Christians recite those creeds every week and there is truth to them BASED on the truth and authority of Scritpure.. |
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John 1:1-5 In the beginning (greek = ajrchv) was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. In him was life, and that life was the light of men. The light shines in the darkness, but the darkness has not understood it.
ajrchv definition:
the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
the extremity of a thing
of the corners of a sail
the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
of angels and demons
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From what i know about Zacharias, he does not embrace Mormonism.. |
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Ask the criminal that hung next to Christ if it was how you start or finish your life. It's the arrival at truth. |
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KMC,
Where on earth did you get the notion that my post was a challenge to you ?
By the way, you wrote;
***************
"Saying that Mormons and Christians are different has nothing to do with whether or not Mitt Romney would make a good or even great president."
***************
I don't believe I conflated those two ideas.
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I would venture to say that Ravi does not embrace Mormonism but he does embrace love and respect. |
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I would refer all readers to Paradise Lost by John Milton. Only recently has "orthodox" Christianity denied the concept of Lucifer being a Son of God (Job 38:1-7). Milton's entire premise of Paradise Lost was the expulsion of Lucifer from heaven to the earth to tempt the sons of men. When Milton wrote his famous epic poem no one decried it as heresy. Why? Because it was accepted as based on the Bible.
For Biblical proof to these assertions see Isaiah 14:12,13; Job 38:7; Luke 10:18 (Jesus said that he saw Satan as lightening fall from heaven); Revelation 12:7. Was not Lucifer called a Son of the morning? (Isaiah 14:12) And then Job says that the "morning stars sang together and the sons (notice plural) of God shouted for joy. (Job 38:7).
So the fact remains that while the Latter-day Saints accept all the doctrines of the Bible and the teachings thereof, "orthodox" Christianity is slowly eliminating those doctrines that they find difficult to deal with. |
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K. McCullough wrote, "And the Jesus Christ of Mormonism is a different Jesus - one of Joseph Smith's imagination - than is the Jesus of the Bible."
We don't believe that. We believe that the Jesus Christ we worship is the same Jesus Christ of the Bible -- not of anyone's imagination. We believe that the gospel of Jesus Christ is also contained in the Book of Mormon.
If you want to say that we believe different things than you, that's fine. But, if you start insulting our beliefs then it is offensive. |
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This is certainly a celebration of the freedom of speech. Speech is so free, that you can tell someone else what they believe.
Let's decide whose definition we are going to use to call someone a "Christain." What's wrong with saying that there are Trinitarian Christians, and Non-Trinitarian Christians?
Why do McCullogh and a few others assume the status of ultimate arbiters of the definition of the word Christian.
Mormons read and study the Bible. They believe in the person who is Jesus Christ. They interpret somethings differently. So do Catholics. So do Jehovah Witnesses. What do you call someone who studys, worships and attempts to follow the commandments of Jesus Christ? I thought that was the definition. If I'm not mistaken, so did Webster. It seems to me McCullogh should take up his argument with Websters Dictionary, not with Mormons.
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Chris,
Mormons are not "so insecure in their religion that they feel like they have to be a sub-part of the larger Christian community." We are very secure in our religion (I thought that was what some people find offensive :)). And there is a basic logical flaw in your statement that "If a Mormon is a Christian, then a Christian is a Mormon" -- just substitute Catholic or Lutheran for Mormon and see how silly it sounds.
However, if you look at the entire scope of theological topics among those that believe in the divinity of Jesus Christ, we all share maybe 80%. It boggles my mind why some people seem to be so intent on dividing people based on the relatively few differences. Of the remaining topics, you can find some where Mormons are closer to Baptists than are Catholics (the mode of baptism, for example). On other topics, Mormons are closer to Catholics than are Presbyterians (source of authority, for example).
So it just seems a bit odd that the very diverse sects called Catholic, Orthodox, Lutheran, Presbyterian, Pentecostal, Evangelical, Baptist, Methodist, etc., etc., etc. somehow think that for purposes of the definition of the term "Christian" they all fit in, but Latter-day Saints don't. If the term Christian has to include a narrow set of extrabiblical teachings such as the Nicean Creed, then Latter-day Saints are happy to be excluded. Unfortunately, being excluded from Christianity would give many people the impression that we don't believe that Jesus Christ is the only begotten Son of God, the Savior of the World, the only means by which anyone can be saved. Since Christ is the center of our faith, we would prefer that people not get that false impression. That's the only reason we object to being miscategorized. |
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Kevin McCullough is pro-Abortion. Kevin McCullogh supports amnesty for illegals. Kevin McCullough supports raising our taxes.
This may not be true, but since he is telling me what I believe, I thought I would tell everyone else what he believes. According to his post, accuracy is not important. It's only what others say you believe that counts. |
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Did the thief on the cross next to Jesus go to heaven? Or did he go to a place prepared for the spirit dead? They are not the same thing.
You will recall that Jesus told the thief on the cross that "today thou shalt be with me in paradise" (Luke 23:43) yet three days later when He appeared to Mary in He told her "touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God. (John 20:17). So where was Jesus and the thief in that first day of death? The Bible is very clear on this point as well, "But also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; Which sometimes were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water." (1 Peter 3:19,20) and "For for this cause was the gospel preached unto them that are dead, that they may be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the Spirit. (1 Peter 4:6). This too is Biblical. All will be assigned their reward after their resurrection from the dead, not before! (1 Corinthians 15:40-44). |
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Not all Christian faiths hold that Jesus is God. Many hold that Jesus is one with the Father in purpose and direction, that he is the Son of God, but deny the Trinity. They still hold true that the only way to salvation is thru the Christ and some, oh heresy, that forgiveness isn't something you can earn but is a gift from the Father or earned by the sacrific of Jesus for all mankind. There are others that even disagree with the written text and still say that they are Christian ("... nor men who lie with men shall inherit God's Kingdom" ring any bells?). Remember a few years back, many white supremacists tried to say they were a Christian Church and the Nazis thought they were Christians. But were they? Does the Good Book say that by their acts you will know them? What matters, when all is said and done, is who God says is one of his and who is not. We may try and understand God's mind in this by reading His verses, but do remember, we add to it or make commentary at the peril of our own souls. If you are to say that you're "Christain" or a member of a "Christian Sect", merely by the virtue of believing that 1)God exists, 2)Jesus exists (or existed), and 3) Jesus was sent by God to aid in Man's Redemption, then you would also have to say that a Muslim was a member of a Christian Sect and that they were "Christians" as well. I, for one, really hope that He has a really, really good sense of humor and is having as good a laugh over this as "the angels dancing on the head of a pin" thing, or we're all toast. |
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Well if we count on Jesus speaking Greek while on the cross then the definition is the upper realms of heaven in the midst of God. Not a holding area awaiting entry into either the Celestial, Terrestrial, or Telestial heavens…
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So where did the bad thief go? According to Mormon Theology aren’t we all saved from death by Christ’s atoning sacrifice to be placed in one of 4 possible locations? |
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Try this:
A Lutheran is not a Christian because he is a Lutheran; a Catholic is not a Christian because he is a Catholic; a Mormon is not a Christian because he is a Mormon.
The fundamental difference, as pointed out by Mr. McCullough, IS fundamental or FOUNDATIONAL. A Christian Lutheran MUST renounce the practices of so many Lutherans in Germany who embraced Nazi ideology if he wants to be called a true Christian; a Christian Catholic MUST renounce the inquisition in order to be called a true Christian. And a Mormon MUST renounce the Book of Mormon in order to be called a true Christian.
What saddens me right now is that when I post my comments, I am going to be labelled by many as a hateful bigot. This does not bother me because I know it's not true. But I understand it's easier to put a label on someone than it is to seriously consider their words. |
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There are various divisions within Mormonism also which have varying doctrinal beliefs. Reformed (RLDS), Church of Christ, Pentecostal Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, Restored Church of Jesus Christ, Church of the Firstborn of the Fullness of Times, and some even lesser known.
Each holding to bits of the original Joseph Smith formed church. |
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Larq says..."If the term Christian has to include a narrow set of extrabiblical teachings such as the Nicean Creed, then Latter-day Saints are happy to be excluded." That doesn't seem to make much sense when Latter-Day Saints insist that The Pearl of Great Price and Book of Mormon must be believed on the same level as the Bible. And when I've talked to Mormons, I can see they are very sincere in their belief in Jesus Christ - it's just that their church has taught them that it's not "Christ alone", but "Christ plus lots of works and rules" that saves. And the whole Jesus was procreated idea - well, it is heretical. |
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Since I just quoted the Bible above and you derided the comments you must not believe in the Bible. Would that make you non-christian? I'd just like to know by which is your definition of Christian.
And, yes, in Mormon theology all men may be saved and have a chance to accept or reject the gospel of Jesus Christ, not only a choice few. I guess "orthodox" Christianity condemns to hell those who die with no knowledge of Jesus Christ and that through no fault of their own. Did God place people intentionally in no win situations? That does not sound like the merciful and just God that I know. I believe that He desires all of His children to make it home and if they do not it is because of their own free agency, not from His lack of providing the opportunities to do so. |
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I am Mormon. While I can't argue with the definition of Christianity, for with that as a definition, we are not Christian. However, several of the points are not what mainstream Mormons believe. When it comes to Mary having conceived Christ the way described in the post, I know is not true in Mormon belief. I have heard some Mormons say that but it is not anywhere in the main stream doctrine of the church and is not taught anywhere. It is not in the cannon of Mormon scripture or canonical Mormon writings. In the Mormon scripture Mary is described as a virgin, end of story. Speculation by some Mormons does not a doctrine make. Please don’t pass this falsehood on. Mary was a chosen vessel of the Lord.
This is coming from a Mormon who was born a Mormon, raised by active Mormons, attended 4 years of Mormon Seminary, attended Brigham Young University, have a Ph.D. in a scientific field, and reads main stream Mormon works often.
Call us out of the mainstream or anything else and I am ok with it. But passing on these beliefs as general Mormon beliefs bothers me.
Many Christians may believe in UFO's but it doesn’t make it part of Christian beliefs.
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Calling something heretical is a cop out. Thus did the Pharasees and Saducees with Jesus. Just because you do not understand a concept does not mean that it is heretical.
Do you have knowledge of how your spirit was formed that entered your body? If so I would love to hear it. The Kingdom of God is a Kingdom of order. I have even heard Protestant preachers preach that this earth is a microcosm of our heavenly home. I refer you to Romans 8:16 which says that we are indeed Children of God and if children, heirs. Heirs of God and joint-heirs of Jesus Christ. |
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I stand corrected - at least upon an initial glance at the Book of Mormon. Alma 7:10 is very clear that Mary was virgin and the Holy Spirit "overshadowed" her and she conceived. Still not sure why all the extra-biblical books are needed...among some other things. |
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... misleading.
First of all if you want to know what Mormons believe, go to the source. http://www.mormons.org
Do you believe that there is some big conspiracy and that Mormons have a goal to hide their beliefs and deceive people? We aren't just willing to tell people are beliefs if they ask, many of us travel across the world at our own expense to tell people what we believe. If anything we do the opposite of hide our beliefs, we proudly proclaim them.
Second, saying Mormons aren't Christians is completely misleading because it implies they don't believe in that Jesus Christ is the Son of God and the Savior of all mankind.
For the record Mormons do believe that Jesus Christ is "the way, the truth and the life."
Go ahead and post all day about how Mormons believe different things about Christ's teachings than what you believe. That is absolutely correct, we do have different interpretations of Christ's teachings.
FYI, of the religions you define as Christians, each one believes many different things about Christ's teachings which is why they separated from one another in the first place. |
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Sorry to offend Dennis, but my point was that anyone who believes that Jesus was not born of a virgin (say, that God had sex with someone in order to conceive Him), then that is a heretical belief. It puts Jesus on the same level with man, and that He is NOT! He is God, period. |
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So looking at the original language that the Gospel of Luke was written in makes me a non-believer in the bible? I would only think that makes me a student of the Word and with that in mind the bigger question of that passage is the reference to “to day”.
As for the a just and merciful God doesn’t it say “Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy.” Rom 9:18 and so one who does not hear the plan of salvation will be judged accordingly to his just and merciful conditions not ours.
Christianity is a word that differs in meaning to the person.
It’s a relationship not a religion that provides you the truth
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Mr. McCullough says that we are asking to be called Christian because we say we love Jesus.
It's not just that we believe Jesus Christ was a historical figure, it's that we believe
that our salvation comes through him. That is why we should be considered Christian.
"There is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved." Acts 4:12
(see also 2 Nephi 25:20) |
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adavila82 writes: Friday, May, 11, 2007 2:34 PM
...I wonder if Mormons seriously embrace the Apostles Creed and the Nicene Creed in the way that many Christians do. The fundamental belief of Christianity is the fact that Jesus Christ is God. He is not just a mere agent of God or just a savior or a mediator, but Jesus is God along with the Father and the Holy Spirit....
The charismatic evangelicals (includes Baptists) want an exclusive claim to the name "christian" so they define it as something only they will conform to. They have even gone so far as to create their own Bible and then claim it's infallibility and inerrancy even though the majority of their bible was selectively assembled (and almost certainly edited) under the auspices of a Roman Emperor by a bunch of bishops with a political agenda. The problems with this should become apparent when one looks at the difference in the number of books in the bible are different for several different christian sects (i.e.: Catholic, Coptic, Evangelical, etc.)
Suppose the bible is not inerrant or infallible, and that this is because it is written by men and limited by their understanding of what the saw, witnessed, were told,etc. of real godly events, happenings and teachings. However, just because the things which these people witnessed were improperly or incompletely understood by them does not mean that what they say is false or that the books of the Bible (which ever version) was not an attempt at a record of what came from Christ or God. Maybe God did not intend the Bible to be inerrant or infallible. The assumption that he did intend inerrancy or infallibility strikes me as the hight of human arrogance. The assumption that a person can know the full depth of Gods intent also strikes ma as arrogance. The difficulty comes in trying to understand, or determine, which is properly interpreted and that which was beyond their understanding and so incorrectly interpreted. This is even documented to happen within the bible itself in which the apostles had trouble interpreting what Jesus told them. Are we any better? Just because the apostles an profits put pen to paper, does this mean that all their misunderstandings were clarified before-hand? Why is it assumed that God granted these people perfect understanding when they wrote what they did?
Also, let's consider the evangelical principle that if you do not become a "Christian" you are doomed to hell. In John 9:39-41 Jesus states that he was brought into the world so that those who do not see may see, and that those who see may be made blind. "If you were blind, you would have no sin; but now you say, 'We see." Therefore your sin remains."
Here's the conundrum. He also says in John 8:31-32: "If you abide in My word, you are My disciples indeed. And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free."
The problem is complicated by the history of the Bible(s) itself. I'm fairly convinced that the Evangelical's Bible is not the true, complete, inerrant and infallible Word, although I believe portions MIGHT be. In spite of this, I still consider myself a Christian because I believe in God and Christ as the son of God (separate beings), regardless of what the Evangelicals or others classify me as (heretic - no doubt). |
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Kristin, first of all I take no offense to honest inquieries. Second, Mormons never have, do not now, and never will teach that God had sex with Mary. This is assumed by an out of context statement by Brigham Young in the Journal of Discourses (Vol 8; pp 215). And it has been taken out of context time and time again. Mormons believe exactly as the Bible states it, that being that the Holy Ghost overshadowed Mary and she conceived. The how was never discussed in any document or discourse by any church leader. That is a myth perpetuated through anti-Mormon circles and has no basis whatsoever. However, I do appreciate the opportunity to clear this up for you. |
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Thanks for and very enjoyable Friday afternoon thread. Glad I stumbled upon it. Everyone have a great weekend and please remember to worship your chosen God this Sunday. (Hope no Seventh Day Adventists are watching) |
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(BTW this is much more important discussion than the first two parts of the series, which I personally found to be kind of lame.)
I agree that "[t]he issue of "loving Jesus Christ" depends fully upon WHO Jesus Christ is." But your article doesn't talk about about who Jesus Christ is, but about Jesus' origins and what Mormons believe He DID before this life. It has little to do with "WHO Jesus Christ is", at least not in his central role as the Savior of mankind. Nothing in your article refutes the idea that Mormons believe the same thing as other Christians regarding what Jesus did for us on golgotha and in gethsemene, namely he atoned for our sins. And that's what Mormons believe; that Jesus died for our sins and only through Him can we be saved. Do you concede that Mormons believe that the historical figure of Jesus of Nazareth was slain for the sins of the world? If you do, than the LDS belief that Jesus was begotten of Heavenly Parents in what the LDS call the pre-existence, at the end of the day, has little effect on the seminal event of Jesus' ministry, namely his atoning sacrifice.
I could go on and attempt to explalin why you have so clearly misunderstood LDS theology, but to what end? What exactly are you trying to do with this series? Tell everyone you'll vote for Mitt, but you won't be happy about it because he's not Christian? If you were playing sports with say a Jew or Muslim, would you preface the match with "I'll play with you, but let's be clear, you don't believe in the same God I do!" What purpose does that serve?
And by the way, what Mormons have pleaded with you to "please call us Christians too"? It seems the plea that is occurring here is you have LDS people who call themselves Christians and it is you who are pleading to "Please stop calling yourselves Christians."
Seriously, I don't need your permission to call myself a Christian. On behalf of all Mormons, let me withdraw the plea for your sanction of "Christian."
However, what we don't need is YOUR ill conceived pleas for us to not call ourselves Christian.
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Mormons often use common terms that to them have completely different meanings than those used in the Bible or by orthodox Christian churches. Mormons may say they believe in "Jesus Christ," trust in the "scriptures," believe they are "saved by grace," and have been "born-again". They will talk about "eternal life" and things like "heaven," but they rarely explain what they mean when they use such terminology.
Holding back information is especially a problem with Mormons in the mission field. It is not uncommon for Mormon missionaries to purposely refrain from discussing doctrines which clearly separate Mormonism from the usual perception of Christianity. They are well aware that to do otherwise would risk any chance of a return visit. In many foreign countries the local population is at a severe disadvantage. Very few books are printed in their native language which critically examine LDS teachings. In many areas they do not even have a translated set of the standard works. At best they may have a copy of the Book of Mormon (or selections). Since the Book of Mormon does not reflect modern LDS teaching on many critical issues, this only adds to the deception 10.
Here is an alphabetical list of some of the more important terms and their meanings to a Mormon:
AARONIC PRIESTHOOD: This is called the lesser priesthood, and is usually held by young men starting at the age of 12 to the age of about 18. It is also held for a short time by men who have just become members.
AFTERLIFE: The Mormon afterlife is divided up into four levels. From the lowest to the highest they are: hell, and then three levels of heaven: the telestial, the terrestrial, and the place where God dwells, the celestial (also called the kingdom of God). The celestial is also divided, the highest level being "exaltation," or becoming a God.
APOSTLES: The Mormon Church claims to have the same organization as the primitive church that Jesus set up. They also have twelve apostles and sometimes use this as a proof of their divine appointment as the one true church. But they actually have fifteen or more most of the time. The general practice has been for a new president, who is also an apostle, to appoint counselors from the Quorum of the Twelve; then the openings left by the president and his counselors are filled, resulting in a total of fifteen.
CELESTIAL KINGDOM: See Heaven.
ELOHIM: The name of God the Father.
EXALTATION: This is becoming a God in the highest level of the celestial kingdom.
ETERNAL PROGRESSION: The teaching that each of us has the potential to become a God just like God the Father did. He was once a man capable of physical death, was resurrected and progressed to become a God. We can take a similar path and get all the power, glory, dominion, and knowledge the Father and Jesus Christ has. We then will be able to procreate spirit children who will worship us as we do God the Father.
GOD: Usually means God the Father. He was once a man like us capable of physical death and he progressed until he became a God. He has a body of flesh and bones, but no blood. Within Mormonism, Gods, angels, people and devils all have the same nature or substance but are at different stages along the line of progression to Godhood.
GRACE - The Mormon concept of grace means making oneself worthy of the grace of God by doing good works in the church, temple, and community.
HEAVEN-The Mormon church teaches there are three levels of heaven (three "degrees of glory"):
Telestial - where unbelievers go
Terrestrial - for religious people who aren't Mormons and for Mormons who have not met the requirements of the
Celestial - for Mormons who have kept ALL of the laws and ordinances of their church. What will the celestial heaven (kingdom) supposedly be like for a good Mormon? He will be a god, he will rule over a planet with his wives and spirit children.
HELL: A place of torment from which the worst of sinners are resurrected (if they repent) into the Telestial kingdom; only a limited number remain in hell forever, - the devil and the demons and apostates who consciously reject and work against Mormonism.
HOLY GHOST: The third member of the Godhead, a personage of spirit, unlike the Father and Son who have bodies of flesh and bones.
JEHOVAH: The pre-incarnate name for Jesus Christ.
JESUS CHRIST: The spirit of Jesus Christ was the first spirit born to God the Father and his wife (Heavenly Mother). He progressed to become a God under the Father. (The Father is also the literal father of Jesus' body in the exact same way we were begotten by our earthly parents.) He now has a body of flesh and bones, but no blood. He is the spirit brother of Satan whose spirit was procreated in the same way as Jesus'. To Mormons, even the atonement of his shed blood is not enough to provide forgiveness of sin and bring eternal life. Stripped of his Deity and demoted to a partial Savior, the Jesus of Mormonism has been robbed of his power and authority. Not only is the Mormon Jesus one who had struggled to achieve his own salvation, he also failed to establish his church. Both in Jerusalem and in the America's where Jesus was supposed to have visited, he attempted to build a group of followers. But in each case, truth was overcome by the alleged early church apostasy into false teaching.
MARRIAGE: The Mormon Church teaches two types of marriage. One ends at death. The other is for "time and eternity." If the couple is married in a Mormon temple by someone with authority it is believed they will stay married in the next life. This kind of marriage is needed if they are to progress, not only as husband and wife, but as God and Goddess.
MELCHIZEDEK PRIESTHOOD: The higher of two categories of ministry in the LDS Church, assigned primarily to seasoned members over the age of 18, males only.
POLYGAMY: The practice of men having more than one wife was started by Joseph Smith in the early/mid 1830's and ostensibly ended in 1890. It is not now sanctioned by the LDS church headquartered in Salt Lake City. Members found practicing it are excommunicated. While the practice was ended, the revelation teaching it is still in Mormon scripture (Doctrine & Covenants 132). Some Mormon splinter groups believe the teaching was for eternity and still practice it. These modern-day polygamists (called fundamentalists) number in the 30,000-50,000 range.
PRE-EXISTENCE: The Mormon teaching that our spirits (Mormons and non-Mormons) were procreated in a premortal life by God the Father and our Mother in Heaven, that our spirits were born and raised to maturity before coming to earth to obtain physical bodies, and that the spirit of Jesus Christ was the first one born to our Heavenly parents.
PRIESTHOOD: A category of ministry in the LDS Church open to all worthy males 12 years of age or older, empowering them to act in God's name. Non-Mormons cannot hold the priesthood, hence they have no authority. Men of African descent have only recently (by special correction of the original revelations) been allowed to hold these offices.
PROPHET: The top leader of the Mormon Church is considered not only a prophet but is also a seer and revelator. He has the title "president." He is the only one who can speak for the whole church and receive new revelation for the whole church. When the current prophet dies, the most senior (time as an apostle, not age) of the twelve apostles, the president of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles, becomes the new president. He can appoint counselors, who receive their authority from him.
SALVATION: A word that Mormons qualify in one of three ways: unconditional or general salvation is simply resurrection from the dead, granted to all through Christ's atonement; conditional or individual salvation involves entering the celestial kingdom through works of Mormonism; full salvation means exaltation to become a God as a result of temple ceremonies and other works. The word 'salvation' can have a two-fold meaning: a) forgiveness of sins and b) universal resurrection:
"There will be a General Salvation for all in the sense in which that term is generally used, but salvation, meaning resurrection, is not exaltation" (Stephen L. Richards, Contributions of Joseph Smith, LDS tract, p.5).
"All men are saved by grace alone without any act on their part, meaning they are resurrected" (Bruce McConkie, What Mormons Think of Christ", LDS tract, p.28).
The Mormons have several different levels of "salvation".
General salvation- in Mormon theology, the death of Christ ransoms men from the effects of the fall (Mormon Doctrine, p.62), except for a few sons of perdition who fell with Lucifer. Thus, all mankind will eventually receive general salvation because all men will be resurrected.
Individual salvation - to obtain individual salvation, the standards set forth by the Mormon church must be met. This comes by grace plus baptism plus works.
Exaltation - different degrees of exaltation
Eternal life on the other hand is reserved for the elite few who qualify and are found worthy of this "honor" or "reward" and who will move on to be "exalted." This salvation is in fact the personal "exaltation" or the fast track of the "eternal progression" process in attaining your own self-made status of godhood in order to people your own planet.
SATAN: One of the spirit children of God. As a consequence of their rebellion Satan and his angels cannot have mortal bodies - hence cannot progress.
SCRIPTURES: The Mormon Church has four documents it calls canonized scriptures: the Book of Mormon, Doctrine and Covenants, Pearl of Great Price, and the King James Version of the Holy Bible.
SON OF GOD: Along with Jesus Christ, all of us are viewed as the children of God, his literal spirit children. This makes us all - Mormons, non-Mormons, Jesus Christ and Satan - spirit brothers.
SPIRITS: Nonmaterial beings allegedly procreated in the pre-existence by God the Father and his wife. Jesus Christ, and even we ourselves, were supposedly born and raised to maturity as spirits before coming into bodies on this earth. The spirit of Satan was also procreated in this way. This makes Satan and Jesus Christ spirit brothers. Jesus selected a righteous path; Satan selected the opposite.
STANDARD WORKS: The four canonized scriptures (see Scripture above) used by the Mormon Church are called the Standard Works.
TEMPLE: One of about four dozen special (for LDS) buildings around the world in which sacred (to LDS) ceremonies are performed for the living and the dead; off limits to nonmembers and even to Mormons who lack a "temple recommend" from their leaders. Only about 20% of the Mormons qualify to go.
TRINITY: This word is used by Christians to summarize the Biblical teaching that within the one true God is three persons: God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Ghost. They share the same nature or substance so that there are not three Gods, but three persons in the one God. Mormons say they also believe in the Trinitarian concept of God. But really what they mean are that God the Father is a God, God the Son is another God, and God the Holy Ghost is a third God and they are "one God" because they are "one in purpose." Mormons often have an incorrect understanding of what Christians mean by the "Trinity." They say Christians believe that the Father, Son and Holy Ghost are one person (i.e., Monophysiteism) or that God shows himself as the Father or the Son or the Holy Ghost (i.e. Modalism).
VIRGIN BIRTH: A concept negated by the view that God, a resurrected man with flesh and bones according to Mormon teachings, literally fathered Jesus in the flesh in the same way in which earthly men father their children. Despite the documented position of previous Mormon prophets, presidents, and apostles about the nature of Christ's conception, modern LDS apologists maintain that "Christ was born of a virgin". How can they? By changing the definition of the word "virgin". The reasoning goes like this: since Mary had sexual relations with an immortal man, not a mortal man, the phrase "virgin birth" still applies.
WORD OF WISDOM: The name for the Mormon Church's teaching requiring abstinence from tobacco, alcohol, and hot drinks (tea and coffee).
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Things are rarely as simple as they sound. Over on another thread someone is trying to support the Orthodox Christian belief that Jesus is uncreated by quoting Genesis "in the beginning" and then stating that since Jesu was with God "from the beginning" he is uncreated.
The problem here is that the Bible verse in Genesis gives no indication of what "in the beginning" means in context.
Orthodox Christians use the context of the beginning of everything that ever was, ever is or ever will be in all possible locations in every conceivable universe. If this context is correct then you are right and God and Jesus created everything out of nothing. (Ex nihilo).
If, however, the context for "in the beginning were say, the beginning of this earth, or this solar system. Then it would be possible for many other things to have happened prior to "in the beginning".
Besides, there are paradoxes associated with Ex nihilo creation. For example if God created everything out of nothing, God created Evil. And if God created Evil than he is responsible for the terrible things that evil does.
If God, then is all powerful, and all knowing, and God knows that evil is evil why did he crete it and subject man to such a terrible struggle?
I'm not saying that I believe God did ti this way. I'm just pointing out that there are more than the orthodox Christian context in understanding the Bible, and that these contexts can be just as plausible or more plausible than the Orthodox construct. |
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Jayhawk writes: "Definitions"
This is the web Jayhawk. Put a link to where you copied and pasted the definitions from.
Jayhawk copied (at the very end) "By changing the definition of the word 'virgin'. The reasoning goes like this: since Mary had sexual relations with an immortal man, not a mortal man, the phrase 'virgin birth' still applies."
I do not believe there was sex involved (see my comment above). God is God and can get Mary to conceive any way He wanted to. To say that it had to be by sexual relations is to limit God's power. I have seen and talked to several "modern LDS apologists" that say what is in the definition and they are wrong and are not in the main stream of the Mormon Church. To take the words of an apologist and apply it to all Mormons is a broad brush.
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...However, just because the things which these people witnessed were improperly or incompletely understood by them does not mean that what they say is false ...
Should read: does not mean that what they say is not an earnest attempt to record the truth |
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As for Jayhawk's definitions - some are correct but many are wrong. This is another example of someone who is not a member of the Church telling me (almost 50 years old and a 5th generation Mormon) what I believe and what I don't. Satan works in the exact same way. Give men a little truth to build credence and then lie through your teeth once you have their trust. Sorry Jayhawk but you are just wrong in many of your definitions. Which anti-Mormon web site did you copy and paste from? |
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Good post, I thank you for those definitions. To Mormons posting here, I have a challenge related to Jayhawks post. Do words have meanings? Is there a difference between what you believe and what traditional Christians believe. Are Jayhawks definitions correct or not? If not, how are they wrong and what do you really believe? I have studied some Mormon doctrine, but probably only older stuff (has it changed?), so I would like help understanding what you really do believe.
If Jayhawk is even half correct then what you believe is totally different than what orthodox Christians believe. As an evangelical, protestant Christian pastor I have studied a lot of Christian theology, and read through the Bible many times. Therefore, I can say with assurance that the above definitions do not match anything Christian that I have ever seen either in the Bible or in the theology texts. I challenge you to pick up any theology text book from any major evangelical, fundamentalist, Baptist, Episcopalian, Congregational, Catholic, Lutheran, Orthodox, Methodist, Presbyterian, Pentecostal, or Reformed denomination, and compare the beliefs listed there to your own. If you did so, you would find a commonality of core beliefs among them that would completely disagree with your own.
In as much as these denominations agree on the basics of who God is, who Christ is, what salvation is, then they would all agree that the others are Christians too. When one of these denominations stop agreeing with the core beliefs of Christianity they stop being Christians.
If Jayhawks definitions are even close to correct then Mormonism does not have the same core beliefs, and is as different from traditional Christianity as Islam. Why then call yourselves Christians, and try to make out you are just another denomination? If you really believe you are the true Christians, then be honest and say that, rather than trying to make believe that you are just like another denomination.
As Kevin seems to be saying in the debate, it is not that we have differences that disturb traditional Christians, it is that you minimize them and act as if they are insignificant. To us they are not insignificant because they have eternal consequences, and I suspect that if you really believe your own doctrine you think so too. |
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Why are you all doing this? Who are any of you to decide who is and who is not what they say they are in matters of faith?
This is supposed to be about politics and free from such blatant and, at many times, ignorant religious bigotry.
If somebody told me last year that Republicans and people who call themselves Christians would be behaving like this I would have sworn it was not possible.
This is just shameful and distressing and I hope our Mormon citizens will forgive us this awfully ugly demonstration.
Shame on you all. Shame. Please spend your energy giving to the poor or spending time with your children rathert than attacking decent citizens of this country.
I suspect Jesus would not approve of this disgusting exercise. |
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I see that TH has not fixed their screen name problem. For the record, the "Scott" posting above is not the same "Scott" who has been posting on TH for the last 7 months or so on many columns (including many of KMC's) with Christian themes.
It is unfortunate that TH apparently sees no need to rectify this situation. I am a Christian.
The person posting above is clearly a Mormon.
The confusion is unnecessary, and TH really ought to do something about it (is there a moderator in the house?!?)
Scott
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The Jesus I worship is the Jesus taught in the Bible (in particular the The Four Gospels) and in context. I have read many of your evangelical "orthodox" books and you will find that the Latter-Day Saints would agree with 90% of most of the writings. Of course, then a Methodist would agree with 90% of what the Baptist writes and the Lutheran would agree with 90% of what the Pentecostal writes. If they all agreed 100% there would be no reason for a different faith. I, personally, love reading Billy Graham, Norman Vincent Peale and Rick Warren and think they are good, honorable Christian men who have a lot of truths. Regardless, of what you have heard or believe, Mormon's do not claim to have a monopoly on the truth. There is some truth found in all the faiths. What we do say, however, is that we do have all the truth (not just portions) as it has been revealed through the prophets. (Amos 3:7, Ephesians 2:20; Ephesians 4:11,12: 1 Corinthians 12:28-31.)
Furthermore, preacher, some of these mistruths in Jayhawks post have been completely disavowed and shown to be deception above. If he would lie on one point, what makes you believe he would not lie on most or all.
I would be most happy to discourse with you one on one or send to you a representative of the Church to do it if you will let me know where you may be found and the name of your Church. I am in Colorado. |
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To the Mormons posting here.
As a traditional Christians, am I an apostate? Am I alright staying in my present church the Evangelical Free Church of America, which is a small evangelical denomination or do I need to become a Mormon? If I need to change, what would beliefs and/or actions would I have to change?
Have Mormon leaders ever or do they now claim that all other Christians churches have fallen away from the true church? If so, (and I believe they have and probably still do), what are the distinguuishing marks between the "true" church and an apostate church? Is it only the traditional churches that make a distinction between Mormonism and orthodox Christianity or to Mormons also make a clear distinction?
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Goldwater,
Jesus certainly spent plenty of time ministering to hurting people, and we should too. On the other hand, he had no trouble calling a spade a spade (see Matthew 23), nor did his followers have a problem making sure people understood the diffence between the truth and falsehood
(Philippians 3:1-10, Galatians).
Mean comments or personal attacks are not very Christlike, but solid, deep, honest, and rational discussion about the truth, is appropriate and necessary. Sometimes these discussion do go over the top (I think McCullough goes over the top sometimes), but the discussion is vital. Truth is not secondary to love. Love is not real unless it it true, so we have to talk about truth to get a better understanding of love. |
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Pastor Sam, I will answer your question with a question.
By what authority do you preach and who gave you that authority? Did they have the permission of Jesus Christ to administer in the ordinances of the gospel?
Even Roger Williams, the first pastor of First Baptist Church in Providence, Rhode Island and the father of the Seperation of Church and State doctrine that is found in the U.S. Constitution gave up his ministry. He realized that he had no authority to administer in the ordinances of Jesus Christ.
He is quoted as saying that there was "no regularly-constituted Church on earth, nor any person authorized to administer any Church ordinance; nor could there be, until new apostles were sent by the great Head of the Church, for whose coming he was seeking" (see William Cullen Bryant, ed., Picturesque America; or, the Land We Live In, 2 vols. [1872–74], 1:502).
Mormon's can show an unbroken line of Apostolic Authority given by the hand of Jesus Christ himself.
No diploma or certificate from a seminary gives you the authority of Christ to administer His ordinances. These things are doctrines of men and thus abominable. Can you tell me which seminary or theological school Peter, James and John attended? Or which seminary or theological school Paul, Matthias or Barnabus attended (they came along after the earthly advent of Christ)? The authority they had came straight from Jesus Christ.
This is the main and most important doctrinal difference.
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Gabby, we have had these same discussions on other threads and all you do is attack. If you were truly seeking answers you would ask them instead of attacking all the time.
This definitely is not Christ-like and you have not backed up a single one of your beliefs with the Bible that you say you believe in.
If you would like to discuss calmly and rationally I will be glad to do so in the spirit of love and understanding, if all you want to do is attack (and you are entitled to your opinion on Joseph Smith - but that is all it is) then others who post here can see you for what you are. |
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Mormons, at least in my experience, do not accuse people of being apostate or a heretic in their daily parlance. If the word is used at all, it usually refers to someone who has rejected their covenants they have made, but again, we don't really use the word. Since I have no idea what kind of covenants you may have made or not kept, I would not consider you an apostate.
As for 'what you need to change', you don't need to change anything if your goal is to have an LDS person consider you Christian. We certainly believe our church has more truth than any one else's church (what church going person doesn't believe that?), but that doesn't mean every other church has zero truth. It's not a sudden death proposition, in terms of respecting other believers as Christians.
And that's what I think most of the LDS people are talking about here; not whose Jesus will save them the best (or whatever) but whether or not LDS people believe in Jesus at all.
Again, since we believe that Jesus was the Christ and is the Savior of all mankind, we would say 'yes', we do consider ourselves Christians, atleast I consider myseld one. |
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I am becoming quite annoyed with all those who profess to be Christian, and yet so hastily attack Mormons and our doctrine. It’s especially shocking to read the vitriolic and strident voices who claim to be authorities on Mormon doctrine.
It's obvious that their understanding of Mormon doctrine is flawed. Their conclusions are based on an unfortunate lack of understanding, and their interpretation of Mormon doctrine is based on skewed or distorted facts. The result of which breeds conflict and contention.
2 Timothy 2: 23-24 (KJV)
23 But foolish and unlearned questions avoid, knowing that they do gender strifes.
24 And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men...
Much like all Christians require faith to explain things that are not logical (e.g. Miraculous conception), so, too, does Mormon doctrine require faith. But contentious accusations that “Mormons are not Christian” and statement exclaiming “I would NEVER vote for a Mormon” do not engender understanding, but division. I would expect such statements between Sunnis and Shi’as, but not among Christians.
Mormons are not stupid people. Our doctrines and beliefs, when taken as a whole, are logical, and make sense to us. From Harry Reid to Orrin Hatch, Gladys Knight to Steve Young, we’re not all imbeciles. If you ask us why we believe, and how we’ve reached our conclusions, we’ll tell you… if you really want to know. But if you just want to start an argument… go somewhere else and leave us alone.
If you want to know what Mormons believe, ask a Mormon. It's only fair that you ask a Mormon to define and explain their faith. Would it be fair to ask Louis Farrakhan to explain Jewish doctrine? Would you ask an Imam to explain Christian doctrine?
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Goldwater writes: “Who are any of you to decide who is and who is not what they say they are in matters of faith?”
And one might ask, exactly who are you, to rebuke anyone for contending earnestly for the faith “which was once delivered unto the saints”? (Cf. Jude 1:3)
“But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, [even] those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.” (Hebrews 5:14, KJV)
“These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.” (Acts 17:11, KJV)
"All scripture [is] given by inspiration of God, and [is] profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:" (2 Timothy 3:16, KJV)
"I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel: [7] Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ. [8] But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. [9] As we said before, so say I now again, If any [man] preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed." (Galatians 1:6-9, KJV)
"He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day." (John 12:48, KJV)
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Goldwater writes: “This is supposed to be about politics and free from such blatant and, at many times, ignorant religious bigotry.”
Please take your “bigotry bomb” and kindly stick it back in your briefcase. Attempting to silence anyone who disagrees with your viewpoint by throwing around words like “bigotry” won’t work here.
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Goldwater writes: “If somebody told me last year that Republicans and people who call themselves Christians would be behaving like this I would have sworn it was not possible. ”
The lady doth protest too much, methinks...
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Goldwater writes: “This is just shameful and distressing and I hope our Mormon citizens will forgive us this awfully ugly demonstration.”
Please, by all means, speak for yourself, but kindly leave the rest of “us” out of it. I’m not sure what has “set you off”, so please be specific, that way the “offending parties” can have the opportunity to defend themselves, if they are so inclined.
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Goldwater writes: “Shame on you all. Shame.”
Again, be specific. If you mean to include Tom, Bob, John and me (for example), simply address your comments to:
Tom
Bob
John
Scott
That way, if any of us who are the direct target of your rebuke desire to do so, we may respond to comments addressed to us. Otherwise, your rebuke to a generic “you all” is pointless.
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Goldwater writes: “Please spend your energy giving to the poor or spending time with your children rathert than attacking decent citizens of this country.”
Christians are commanded to do many things (in addition to caring for the poor and our families). One of those things is to spread the Gospel of Christ. The Gospel that was once delivered to the saints, not “another Gospel”, about which we are warned.
Please show me a single example, between Genesis 1:1 and Revelation 22:21, where Christ tolerated or condoned religious error, as opposed to correcting it, and then ask yourself: are we to follow Christ’s example, or should we be “sensitive” to the ever-changing sensibilities and worldly wisdom of men?
"For do I now persuade men, or God? or do I seek to please men? for if I yet pleased men, I should not be the servant of Christ." (Galatians 1:10, KJV)
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Goldwater writes: “I suspect Jesus would not approve of this disgusting exercise.”
No need to "suspect", we can know His will according to His Word, and we can be certain that Christ and His apostles were bold in speaking the truth of His Word. They spoke from the heart, and out of Christian love, and they were not timid. They were honest and forthright, and they were not ashamed of the Truth of His Word.
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Comedian Emo Phillips had it right:
I was walking across a bridge one day, and I saw a man standing on the edge, about to jump off. So I ran over and said "Stop! don't do it!" "Why shouldn't I?" he said. I said, "Well, there's so much to live for!" He said, "Like what?" I said, "Well... are you religious or atheist?" He said, "Religious." I said, "Me too! Are you Christian or Buddhist?" He said, "Christian." I said, "Me too! Are you Catholic or Protestant?" He said, "Protestant." I said, "Me too! Are you Episcopalian or Baptist?" He said, "Baptist!" I said, "Wow! Me too! Are you Baptist Church of God or Baptist Church of the Lord?" He said, "Baptist Church of God!" I said , "Me too! Are you original Baptist Church of God, or are you reformed Baptist Church of God?" He said, "Reformed Baptist Church of God!" I said, "Me too! Are you Reformed Baptist Church of God, reformation of 1879, or Reformed Baptist Church of God, reformation of 1915?" He said, "Reformed Baptist Church of God, reformation of 1915!" I said, "Die, heretic scum", and pushed him off. |
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Gabby, I have not attacked you but only defended my faith and attempted to save it from untruths and distortions by evil intended individuals. I refuse to return evil for evil. True Christians do not knowingly slander others. So go in peace, my friend, and may the Spirit of Christ accompany you. |
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I noted your comments with interest. You seem to be moderate in your tone as you discuss here.
You might be interested in the diccussion going on at the Frank Pastore Blog of Apr 30.
We are discussing some of the doctrinal points of the Church there.
Wishing you peace in Christ |
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To anyone interested, I would love to engage in a personal dialogue. In fact, I am quite interested to learn what the average or typical LDS member really believes.
My email address is littlemas2@hotmail.com.
I have read enough LDS material both past and present to believe that the gulf between the offical LDS doctrine and orthodox Christians is still significant enough for me to say that the historic and official position is a different Jesus than the one I follow (and the one I believe the Bible clearly teaches). I also have a former LDS member in my church, and she recognizes a clear difference.
On the other hand, I know and have in the past known a number of LDS members and have been fairly impressed with them. Most are very nice, good family people, who are fairly intelligent and willing to engage in an open dialogue. This is unlike some restrictive cults and even some very fundamentalist groups that rely primarily on controling the information that their members view.
If for instance you can read orthodox Christians such as CS Lewis (my favorite author), Rick Warren, and Billy Graham, and listen to Ravi Zacharias (my favorite modern Christian thinker), then perhaps you are fairly close in your personal belief to what traditional Christians such as myself believe.
I truly believe that people who read the Bible and believe it to be God's true revelation of Himself will eventually come to similar conclusions. I believe that God will reveal Himself to those who honestly seek Him.
Matthew 7:7-8 - Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. For everyone who asks receives; he who seeks finds; and to him who knocks, the door will be opened. (NIV)
God bless.
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I sent you an e-mail.
daddy o |
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When deciding whether to vote for Mitt Romney, I kindly ask you to do the following:
1. Make two lists - one list of how your beliefs and Mitt's beliefs are aligned (that means politically and in terms of faith) and a second list of how they differ.
2. Decide which of these lists describe things that are important to his job as POTUS.
3. Ask yourself, "How many of the other candidates that call themselves Christians really believe in what they claim?"
4. Decide if losing the Presidency to the left next November is worth it. |
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As I painstakingly explain to the nice young Morons when they visit to convince me of the wonders of their creed which was invented by an inbred halfwit and confidence man from Vermont who discovered and then misplaced Egyptian Hieroglyphics (Reformed no less) written on "Golden Plates" by a Pre-Columbian "Prophet" in New York state and from this experience formulated the most illogical, unsubstantiated and incoherent creed ever as a criminal conspiracy to enrich himself and who finally died in a gun fight where he killed his own brother with his disgruntled neighbors. Yeah right.
Protestants have only themselves to blame because this is logical evolution from 32,000 sects invented by self important seers since the Reformation and now this satanic spawn has the audacity to claim that they are Christian. Please don’t insult our intelligence or our faith.
Mitt Romney is a tool and a fraud and it has nothing to do with his Mormonism. I would have voted for Orrin Hatch. I was a citizen of Massachusetts when Romney ran for Senate against Kennedy and I said at the time that he was the only candidate that would have compelled me to vote for Ted Kennedy as the Conservative choice. Luckily I moved to New Hampshire before that unhappy event occurred but it was a close call.
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Boy Andy, got an axe to grind? Your history on all counts is rather hostile and completely untrue. Are you even a Christian? Name calling has never been a Christlike virtue. Hate to break the news to you Andy, my friend, Mormons are extremely Christian in doctrine and in actions. |
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About Andy's post
Rarely has so much falsehood and drivel been put into two paragraphs in one place. |
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After reading about what I really believe here I find I am dismayed. I see now that everything I believe i believed was never what I believed at all. Could those of you who are Christians help me some more. Now that I know I can't trust what I believed I believe I will need some support and guidance to get the full picture as it were, for example, how do i feel about Cheerios? I suppose I am no more than a publican and sinner. the best I can hope for is that there is someone who would willingly stoop to sit and sup with me. Even though all of the other Phari-- err... Christians will mock them for their willingness to be seen with me. |
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Sam Allen,
If you are interested, one of the goals of the Church of Jesus Christ is to teach the scriptures. There is a lot of information here:
http://ldsces.org/Institute%20Manuals.asp
They are the student manuals produced for scripture study, and they cover each and every book in detail, plus church history, teachings of the latter day prophets, etc... You can look up specific scriptures, doctrines, etc using the guides online. |
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Jayhawk wrote:
"Is there a difference between what you believe and what traditional Christians believe."
If that was the only question, we could have saved time. Yes, our beliefs are different than traditional Christianity. We still think we are Christians since we believe in Christ.
note: I changed my screen name to avoid confusion with the other "Scott" |
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"GRACE - The Mormon concept of grace means making oneself worthy of the grace of God by doing good works in the church, temple, and community."
This is not the Mormon concept of grace. We believe that we cannot be saved on our own and that only through Jesus Christ and his atoning sacrifice can we overcome sin and death.
We also believe that faith is a motivating principle. When people have faith they will show it through doing good works in church, temple, and community.
The idea is that after all we can do, we will still fall short. Jesus Christ makes up the difference, and so, we are saved by grace. |
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Would it be shocking to say of God the Son "He was once a man like us capable of physical death and he progressed until he became a God. He has a body of flesh and bones"
When Jesus appeared to his followers he said, "Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have." Luke 24:39
Under Trinity Jayhawk says,
Mormons often have an incorrect understanding of what [other] Christians mean by the "Trinity." They say [traditional] Christians believe that the Father, Son and Holy Ghost are one person (i.e., Monophysiteism) or that God shows himself as the Father or the Son or the Holy Ghost (i.e. Modalism).
I thought that you believed modalism. So, if not, what do you believe?
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