Wednesday, October 25, 2006
Posted by:
Kevin McCullough
at
6:48 PM
The court's rationale was insane...
First off the headlines have ALL been misleading, this liberal, democratic based court was not split 4-3 on extending marriage rights to homosexual unions. On that portion of the ruling they stood unified 7-0. The discord seems to have come over the allowance of the legislature (which is controlled strongly by liberal democrats) to "redefine" marriage or to formulate "legal same sex unions" to be so identified under the law, but extending every marriage benefit under law.
So again - the people of a northeastern liberal state have had a court impose its will upon the people of the state using the faulty argument of the "equal protection" clause...
It also appears to allow non-residents to flock into New Jersey, grab up a civil marriage ceremony, and disappear to their own state to challenge local Defense of Marriage Laws... (This could chance in the fact that the legislature will now be defining marriage, and they could in fact revisit the residency requirement.)
This shot across the bow may just be the wake up call the state of New Jersey is in need of. Liberal corruption on the fiscal issue is one thing, but now their will be a play to force religious institutions to perform and recognize these unions. There will be challenges to churches who choose not to perform them. There will be anti-discrimination, hate-speech, and equal protection challenges to pastors and institutions who choose not to engage in the immoral and inequitable task of calling a sexual union by two men performing anal sex, the same moral equivalent as man and woman taking sovereign oaths before God, and pledging to the state to raise children and serve responsibly as role models.
It's not entirely unexpected, and I for one am laying the mandate down now. I will dedicate every ounce of energy, air-time, and media appearance I can to seeing the people of New Jersey be given the chance to decide this issue for themselves and not be subject to the whims of the elite Diabolical Dagger Society on the New Jersey Supreme Court.
MuscleHeads will march, we will speak, we will demand that constitutional rights for "We The People" to decide such matters and not seven elitists who look down on people of faith as stupid bible thumpers.
We will organize, demonstrate, network, promote, and debate at every turn, at every chance.
We are not alone, our brothers and sisters in the state of Massachusetts also seek by 70% of the population to overturn their court mandated social experiment. We will do all we have to, to see this through...
Human Rights Campaign, ACLU, and every other liberal activist group seeking to rape people of faith against their will - be alerted - the MuscleHead Revolution is calling you OUT!
This is only the first round...
This is probably the best thing that could possibly happen to Tom Kean, Jr.'s lackluster campaign. (Of course, the GOP in NJ isn't like the Bible Belt. In NJ, they are Country Club Republicans like Christie Todd Whitman.)
|
|
|
|
|
Anyone know of a good hyperbole filter on the web I could feed this blog through to get any kind of realistic meaning out of it? |
|
"It's not entirely unexpected, and I for one am laying the mandate down now. I will dedicate every ounce of energy, air-time, and media appearance I can to seeing the people of New Jersey be given the chance to decide this issue for themselves and not be subject to the whims of the elite Diabolical Dagger Society on the New Jersey Supreme Court. MuscleHeads will march, we will speak, we will demand that constitutional rights for "We The People" to decide such matters and not seven elitists who look down on people of faith as stupid bible thumpers.We will organize, demonstrate, network, promote, and debate at every turn, at every chance."
Thank you Kevin, and God bless you and yours for that.
Imagine! Perverts in black robes flouncing about thinking NOTHING of the good and decent citizens and hard working Husband and Wives, Moms and Dads and people of New Jersey! Not to mention our children..
Tyranny!
Treachery!
My first thought was, I am sorry to say-
but not truly..
Where are the abortion clinic bombers to remove these judges from existence?! If we use *their*, these rogue judges' standard of legal procedure-then..Someone should slaughter them all!! No questions asked..
Such an arrogant, presumptive and reprobate act by these insane perverted dead-men-walking will not only reap the whirlwind from the people of New Jersey, but by the very hand of God!
You can be SURE, because we are praying on it!
Man the torpedos and don't stop praying for God's vindication and downing of these devils!
The American Courts=The New Sodom..
No wonder there is a rumor that gays in "power" want to hurt our blood supply..
Anyway..
We are with you Kevin..
May God excercise the same mercy and weights and measures upon America's judges, and those judges in New Jersey and Massachusetts, as they have shown the Christians and truly-concerned citizens today! In Jesus' name..
|
|
To readers, and ~KMC
So sorry about some of those words in my last comment above.
Obviously, we are Christians, and do not advocate violence against judges, or any individuals, regardless of their reprehensible ways..
Which was why my previous title mentioned loving our enemies..regardless of their sinful ways..
I was angry, and still am, at those few and perverted minority of judges that, in their prideful and deluded minds, think they speak for us all..
There are constructive, and lawful, ways we can go about changing and attacking these evils..
Spiritually, there is always the recourse of vigilant and concerted prayer..
As for me and my family, once more, we stand by you Kevin and what you will be doing in this fight, and all you have to say..
Naturally, our prayers will continue, that GODLY justice prevails, and that these despots will be moved, if only by a move of God Himself and the voice of the people, to stop their evil and do the right thing..That, or for a miraculous vote to have their tyrannical power removed..
In any case, God is still on the throne. You can be sure this vile wickedness passed by perverted and depraved men is not lost on His timetable..
HIS eyes never sleep..HE will judge..
Pray unceassingly people.
Genesis chapter 19.. |
|
"Human Rights Campaign, ACLU, and every other liberal activist group seeking to rape people of faith against their will - be alerted - the MuscleHead Revolution is calling you OUT!"
Rape? You contort the word beyond meaning. You have no concept of what "rape" really is, and to apply it here is a mockery. As for calling out GLBT people...bring it on. It isn't like you didn't hate us and want us buried or outlawed anyway. |
|
Mr. McCullough (or anybody else),
Just what, exactly, is "faulty" about the "equal protection clause" argument? How do you define that argument, in order to find fault with it?
It seems to me that the right to form a lifelong union with a person with whom you feel a deep and abiding physical, emotional, and spiritual bond is a (if not THE) primary manifestation of the right to the pursuit of happiness. If some people's such unions are blessed, encouraged, and granted the innumerable advantages and support that our government & law bestow upon marriage, while other such unions are not, then that does seem to me to obviously violate equal protection.
I've heard that glib dismissal of the concept of equal protection time after time, but nobody backs it up with any reasoned argument.
|
|
"It isn't like you didn't hate us and want us buried or outlawed anyway."
I am really sick of that argument. Christ and Christianity DOES NOT stand for, condone, or teach hate of any human being. We (Christians and secularist) have very fundamental differences in what we recognize as and call sin. It's not based on our opinions but rather based on what God calls sin in His Word.
There are some very hateful people (like Fred Phelps who have been protesting funerals of soldiers) who say they are Christians (and he and his follwers are far from it) that preach hate, I'll give you that, but their thinking and actions are FAR from what Christ teaches and the majority of Christ's followers believe in and act like.
As a Christian I don't hate anyone because all human beings are created by and loved by God. I do however not support redefining marriage to include same-sex unions, abortion etc. because my duty is to serving Christ not people. God's Word (the Bible) says Do Not Kill and God defined marriage as the union between one man and one woman. As a Chritian I believe that the Bible is the absolute Word of a loving, living, all powerful God that serves as a guide for how we as Christians should live our lives so that we can be closer to Him. I also believe that God's Word is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow and He doesn't change His mind just because the wind blows in another direction. |
|
|
Thank you Kevin for your willingness and determination to fight this important battle. As a born and raised New Jersey resident, I was appalled and saddened when I heard the horrific news. Let's fight Kevin! I am with you! |
|
|
Same-sex marriage is not a civil rights issue and neither is traditional marriage. |
|
Thanks for your response. (BTW I am a Flaming Liberal MulticulturAList. I don't know what a Multiculturist is.)
But it's not much of a response! I'm reminded of the famous "Argument Clinic" Monty Python skit, when the customer claims that an argument is much more than "simply gainsaying what the opponent says".
It's obvious to me that the ability to marry the person with whom you wish to spend the rest of your life is fundamental to the pursuit of happiness, and if we encourage this for some and forbid it for others we're protecting un-equally.
Is there no one who can tell me what is "faulty" about the "equal protection" argument? |
|
24 hours later and Kane hasn't said a word about it and his poll numbers didn't budge.
Menendez will win, Santorum will loose (big), the gays will get "married" in New Jersey and the world will keep on turning. |
|
steve here said:
".. the gays will get "married" in New Jersey and the world will keep on turning."
Oh really now steve..
But HOW will it turn?
Will it turn in a pleasant happy way, as if gays and their gay lawmakers have not bitten the proverbial adultery apple, by taking a bite out of wholeness and purity, thus compromising it, and then saying:
"I have done nothing.."
But they HAVE..
The world "continuing" to turn has nothing to do with the fact that a great evil has been perpetrated here!
As for celtic dragon saying:
"It isn't like you didn't hate us and want us buried or outlawed anyway."
No one here "hates" you celtic dragon, or the gays or anyone..
What we hate and despise is Evil and dishonesty, and unjust weights and measures..On many, many levels what has been done here is evil with a capital "E"..
Evil is calling a holy and consecrated union created by God as a covenant before Him and the world-marriage-anything other or less than it is!
For homosexuals to want to use the word "marriage", or opt into trying to take hold of it by any other name-whether they start with civil unions and then try to go after the name marriage, it is still the same..is a great evil..
It is not only dishonest, because in REALITY the two words cancel each other out.."gay" + "marriage"= is neither..but it is also dishonest because it not only unfairly and wrongly presents a true description or depiction of the word and reality of Marriage, it seeks to hyjack that word and place it in a community that has never had a right to that word or reality-marriage-to make it it's own..
Add to this the societal and moral confusion this could cause children and other people..The plague of terrible and sick images it would hoist upon our televisions and magazines-as if they weren't bad enough..
This ALL coupled with the nefarious agenda political gays have had seeking to sully, deflower and brainwash our kids from grade school on with pro-gay propaganda, and you have a TRUE social engineering prospect led by the likes of Luciferians. They use politcal gays as a pawn..telling them they are a "minority" who needs a "right" to a thing like marriage that isnt and was not EVER intended for the!
For those of us who hate lies and Evil, yes, we hate dishonesty. We loathe anyone pushing their dishonest, twisted, perverted and selfish agenda at the expense of the welfare of us, society and our children and the nation's future..
Now if you are a "transgendered" parent as you claim, then you may see this all as a very different thing...A lobbying for "all" you might say or just more towards your personal "expression"..But this was not ever meant to be in God's economy!
It is a very evil thing. Not just because we Christians disagree with it, but because it is!
And on so many levels..
The levels of 'gay' and 'marriage' being two words which cancel each other out, so can't be used, except in the now Satanic dictionary.of the thought police and the politically correct.
The level of tyranny, where the voice of the many is being brutally ignored by the acts of a few..homosexual lawyers who were placed there by a non minority to act as judges..
The level of evils working together..
The AP news outlset and press claiming this is a victory..and spreading lies about gays and calling it "Truth", when the fact is no one in this state ever wanted it to begin with!
The levels of Evil begin with men loving to perform a wicked act such as a homosexual 'life' style..is bad enough..
Their wishing to make "legitimate" -they never can you know not truly-their sin and Evil by trying to control the COURTS and push or cover up to make such sin and Evil lawful..says nothing about Truth nor about Lawfulness..
It only says these men and women have acted out their lawless ways of being in such a selfish and inconsiderate way, they have now exausted, short of violence God forbid..though this IS a violation they have done..many AND a violent act.., almost every way of getting their will-against the people-through..
Not to mention the lies spoken to try to connect gays to Black men and women and minorities! What dishonesty..What arrogance..What hype!!!
None of us "hate" homosexuals or your crowd of people celtic dragon..Nor is it "hate"ful to express the facts about this being wrong here..
We *DO* hate wickedness, selfishness, dishonest measures, and out right tyranny, treachery and LIES..as well as intimidation..by sick perverted leaders..like the pro-gay despots who run the courts..many of them..today..
Galatians 5 1 Timothy..Genesis 19 on and on.. |
|
Dear Mrs. V. --
With all due respect, what a crock.
Gay "marriage," or whatever the NJ legislature ends up calling, will have zero impact on my marriage, my children or – I’ll go out on a limb here -- on yours, either.
I am not going to suddenly abandon my wife and children just because suddenly there are lesbians somewhere in New Jersey who now have a marriage license.
This election is about three things: Iraq, Iraq and Iraq. I am myopically focused on that. Nothing else matters to me in this election.
Shame on anyone who is so self absorbed that they cast a vote based upon something as trivial and insignificant as gay rights while our soldiers are being massacred and terrorism is flourishing. |
|
steve you just said this to me..
"With all due respect, what a crock.Gay "marriage," or whatever the NJ legislature ends up calling, will have zero impact on my marriage, my children or – I’ll go out on a limb here -- on yours, either. I am not going to suddenly abandon my wife and children just because suddenly there are lesbians somewhere in New Jersey who now have a marriage license. This election is about three things: Iraq, Iraq and Iraq. I am myopically focused on that. Nothing else matters to me in this election. Shame on anyone who is so self absorbed that they cast a vote based upon something as trivial and insignificant as gay rights while our soldiers are being massacred and terrorism is flourishing."
Steven you just called me and my family "self absorbed" because we care about society's welfare, my family's welfare and that of other families, children and society..
I never suggested, nor implied *I* would "abandon" my Spouse and family for any act done by others, be it wicked or not..Nor was that the suggestion in all I wrote on here..
I cannot help it if the corruption of families, youth, and society is not a thing that is obvious, nor meaningful to you..
You have said you are "myopically focused" on the issues you mention..fine for you..
We, fellow Christians and Conservatives, and the vast majority of America's and New Jersey's citizens, are not..
|
|
Dear Mrs. V. --
That's right, you said it exactly: you are not focused on Iraq, the spiraling death toll of our soldiers and the fact that terrorism is spreading.
Instead, you are being distracted by something that has absolutely no bearing on daily life in this country, while ignoring something that has an enormous, immediate impact.
I was born and raised in Rumson, NJ, possibly the most GOP city on the east coast. But, it was also hit hard on 9/11, with many citizens from that little town lost. I know what is important and what is not.
By the way: you're not the only Christian, Conservative and American posting here.
|
|
steve, this was your comment to me above:
"Dear Mrs. V. --That's right, you said it exactly: you are not focused on Iraq, the spiraling death toll of our soldiers and the fact that terrorism is spreading. Instead, you are being distracted by something that has absolutely no bearing on daily life in this country, while ignoring something that has an enormous, immediate impact.."
I never said other issues of the day were not important to me and my family steve..
Steve, I am going to cease and desist in further talks with you..You strike me as nothing more than an argumentative chap who enjoys arguing just for the sake of arguing..While I respect that you have a different perspective, you, clearly, cannot respect that others may too..
Our considering these issues about our society and its moral fibre and welfare a huge priority denotes respect and care for ourselves our children and society's welfare. This care and cocnern makes us no less concerned citizens in other ways..And I don't appreciate your implication otherwise..
Our making these things a priority makes them no less of one just because "steve" says so..
You ought to quit placing thoughts/words/ideas in other people's mouths (Or you may find much more than an earful ending up in yours..) Just a word to the wise..Folks who act as you do often end up in that position looking for arguments under rocks everywhere..
As for your other comments, and the tenor of your reply, as I said, I see you are just a bloke out to contend, with nothing valuable to say, except to re comment on where you stand, and how you think anyone elese who does not share the same view is being "distracted"..because their priorities are different than you..
We don't agree..
And I think that point's been established..
Any talk to me beyond this will simply justify what you've already shown yourself to be..
An argumentative fellow who gets high on arguing for the sake of arguing..when no one is actually arguing with him..
I have better things to do with my time than to go on talking to someone like that who is, obviously not an expert or "me"..let alone on spiritual insights into weighty news of the day..
P.S. You said our concerns have "absolutely no bearing on daily life in this country, while ignoring something that has an enormous, immediate impact."
I say, for YOU...
You close by saying: "I know what is important and what is not. "
And you may well think that is true..
And it might be, for YOU..
That has nothing to do with whether or not it is important to the vast majority of the rest of New Jersey's and American's citizens out there..
You end your argumentative banter with:
"By the way: you're not the only Christian, Conservative and American posting here."
I realize that..and your point?
I mean other than being annoying, rude, argumenative...contrary simply for the sake of being so..
Since you already made your previous points above earlier..you really had no point save arguing, did you?
Hem..thought not..
|
|
A long time ago in a land not so far away there was a Church that upheld the dignity of man and the sacrament of marriage. All of the surrounding countries belonged to the Church as did the leaders and citizens of those countries. The Church was rank with hypocrisy because it was filled with sinners, that is to say, men. There was open dialogue among the peoples and nations that brought long-established matters into question. This is necessary because each generation of man must learn what their fathers knew. In this old land, dissenting views were expected to be posted at the most common meeting place in each community. That place was the front door of the local Church.
In a time of unrest and advancing technology, ideas can disseminate among the people that are caustic to culture and detrimental to the order of lives and souls. There are men that would take advantage of this disorientation for their own dark purposes. Usually the purposes are no more than physical pleasure, the accumulation of worldly wealth and self-aggrandizement. It has been shown that if you appeal to the pride of eachman and advise him that his conscience is the highest order of morality, eachman can be easily manipulated like a fish at the end of a string. But an unformed and uninformed conscience is not very useful when it comes to ordering ones life for eternity.
The early reformers were examples of men who would subvert the existing and natural order for their own purposes. The German reformer hated vows and even promoted adultery and bigamy. He married a nun and even argued against his own marriage. The English reformer broke his nation from the church in order to nullify his legitimate marriage and remarry, over and over.
We live in a time when a nominally Christian people are shocked and dismayed when Christian precepts are banned, disapproved of and trodden over in a public avalanche of hedonism and paganism.
Welcome to the club.
So let us begin by recognizing that Truth is one and Evil is infinitely divided. So long as we stand outside and curse the Church, as we have been conditioned to do, there will be no unity as willed by its Founder.
Ignorance of Christ's teachings is no longer an excuse to hold to traditions of men.
Come home to the oldest institution on earth and the home of your fathers. The call will not come from the ministers. They are corrupt. That is why it is said that the floor of hell is lined with the skulls of bishops. This is a lay apostolate. Come home and watch the secularists tremble and fall to their knees.
|
|
Here are some drawbacks of same-sex marriages and civil unions:
(1) They are unfair to people -- whether gay or straight -- who would like the advantages of such relationships (e.g., inclusion in a partner's employer's medical and pension plans) but who do not want to be perceived as being gay. There is still something of a social stigma attached to being gay.
(2) Because laws on recognition of same-sex relationships will vary from state to state, some gays will be more equal than others.
(3) Same-sex marriages and civil unions create great problems for the "full faith and credit clause," Article IV, Section 1 of the Constitution, which says, "Full faith and credit shall be given in each state to the public acts, records, and judicial proceedings of every other state." There is already a child custody lawsuit because Vermont civil unions are not recognized in Virginia --
see http://www.courttv.com/news/gaymarriage/081304_custody_ap.html
(4) Monogamous same-sex marriages and civil unions are unfair to people who are denied legal recognition of polygamous and other plural relationships. If monogamous same-sex marriages and civil unions are allowed, what justification is there for denying plural marriages and civil unions?
Also, complaints by gays that not being able to get married prevents them from doing such things as inheriting a partner's assets or visiting a partner in a hospital are without foundation.
Also, gay marriage is often falsely compared to interracial marriage, often with a citation of Loving v. Virginia, which struck down laws against interracial marriage. However, same-sex marriage and interracial marriage are fundamentally different. For one thing, most people are readily identifiable as to sex but a lot of people are not readily identifiable as to race. Also, racial classifications are inherently suspect because their usual purpose or effect has been to stigmatize non-whites as inferior or undesirable.
I think that by pushing for same-sex unions, gays are risking a backlash and possible loss of some of the gains that they have already made. For this reason, I am surprised that I have not seen any gay organization oppose same-sex unions. |
|
Hi Larry,
With regard to (1), I can assure you that there is no gay person who would exchange all the rights and benefits of marriage for some additional measure of protection from being known as gay. Any gay person who would marry is past that. You remind me here of 17th and 18th century arguments favoring slavery as a way to protect black people from the stress and vicissitudes of freedom.
Your argument (2) points to the need for a federal law, though indeed I wonder if the state laws regulating heterosexual marriage are uniform across all states.
I suppose argument (3) identifies bureaucratic difficulties associated with the extension of equal mariage rights to gay people. Corrections of institutional injustice almost always do incur such difficulties. As a country, are we too lazy to be just?
Your 4th argument is the first worthy of serious scrutiny. I believe that a concept of polygamous marriage would actually confer an unfair advantage to it's members over individuals and two-person marriages. A "group marriage" could endure forever, as the death of an individual would not end it and new participants could make it last into perpetuity. It would be as if corporations were sudenly given all the advantages of marriage. In addition, all of the existing body of law regulating marriage would work apply seamlessly to unions of two individuals of the same gender. Everything would have to be re-imagined from scratch for polygamous marriage. Divorce, property rights, child custody, inheritance, ... the list is endless and each issue a conundrum.
OF COURSE the inability to marry affects the ability of gay people to inherit each others assets, visit each other in hospitals, and enjoy countless other enefits of marriage. It is true that each regulation involving only the two parties can be defined by a separate contract, and I suppose a pair of gay lawyers who marry could probably generate the hundreds of separate contracts required to make their relationship to each other equivalent to a marriage, but no such contract can affect make third parties treat their union as a marriage. Elsewhere on this website it's been noted that with the death of former congressman Gerry Studds we see the first instance of the denial of congressional spousal survivor benefits to a congressman's marriage partner. And Mr. Studds and his male partner actually were legally married in Massachusetts. Into what contract with each other could they enter that would force the congress to treat them fairly?
Yes, gay people (like women or black people) do risk provoking a backlash. So does anyone who is unjustly oppressed and forced to fight for their rights.
|
|
You said:
"OF COURSE the inability to marry affects the ability of gay people to inherit each others assets, visit each other in hospitals, and enjoy countless other enefits of marriage."
That's a lie..
A homosexual can't truly participate in marriage. And the "rights" you claim homosexuals don't have they already have in spades. That fact is indisputable in any court of law, regardles sof liars who say that isn't so.
Homosexuals, by way of homosexual judges and lawyers, and their company have been given many more rights and privledges than they even deserve.
I know kevin can challenge you there too, as he's said it many times..Homosexuals don't need any more "special" rights than the profound multitude they have already bent the courts to give them.. They experience NO loss or deficit here, despite all you've said..
"Elsewhere on this website it's been noted that with the death of former congressman Gerry Studds we see the first instance of the denial of congressional spousal survivor benefits to a congressman's marriage partner. And Mr. Studds and his male partner actually were legally married in Massachusetts. Into what contract with each other could they enter that would force the congress to treat them fairly?"
That is because that is NOT a marriage. You can't count something as "legal", like in Massachusetts, if it's not LAWFUL.
The entire homosexuals fiasco in Massachusetts had and has to do with a an out-of-control court of Liberal judges acting out as a minority, for the purpose of pandering to homosexuals, AGAINST the will of the people!
How DARE you come on here with long written typed out talks about homosexuals and "marriage" and their, supposed "rights", as if a pervert, or anyone advocating such judicial lawlessness and perversion should have a THING to say about anything in these matters, much less about real law and the Truth.
"Yes, gay people (like women or black people) do risk provoking a backlash. So does anyone who is unjustly oppressed and forced to fight for their rights."
"Gay" people provoke a backlash because YOU have brutally, forcefully unfairly, and in a deceptive way sought to, consistently USURP, intimidate, and THWART long understood, foundational societal pillars, like marriage, for your OWN selfish agenda, while violenting thumbing YOUR nose at the rest of the people.
Take your bag of bum discussion along the side road fellow. That you can flounce along and flit around here talking lost so LIES about the, supposed, "plight" of homosexuals is beyond me.
"Gays" are *THE*, by way of their violence, threats, lies and intimidations, most catered to small body of people in America's history.'
What's WORSE, some naive in America's public, blinding fall into agreeing to give them even MORE "rights" because of buying the LIES spoken by people like you..
I find you political "gays" disgusting.
I find the depths, and lengths, you'll go to to get "your" way some of the most wicked, dishonest and Evil stuff around.
Here is just some of the Truth, about the band of perverts and what you, actually, long to be:
Homosexual Manifesto
AN ESSAY ON THE
HOMOSEXUAL REVOLUTION *
http://www.forthechildreninc.com/issues/homosexuality/TheAgenda/InTheirOwnWords.html
http://panindigan.tripod.com/homorev.html
Authored by Michael Swift
Presented for info by the PhilFam Committee
10 June 1998
|
|
There's a couple of things here that make want to either bang my head against a wall to get the pain of anti-intellectual nonsense out of my head, or else bang the anti-intellectual heads against the wall for being ... well, anti-intellectual.
I have been told I'm "conservative" so often that I sometimes believe it. But seriously, folks, all this energy being thrown at gay marriage defies sense. First, Mrs V, I've gotta agree with Steve: you are self-obsessed. I'd go further than that: you're self-righteous. You know better than e-e-e-everybody else...
Here's a hint: no you don't. Wanna complain because the inane liberals are turning the nation into a nanny state? treating us like 4 year-olds who don't know enough to not play in traffic? You're doing the same here, with this. "Only **we** know how people should pair up..." Yeah? Wyzat? Cuz you go to church? So do people who disagree with you.
So who's right? Whose god can beat up whose?
And just for the record, if straight-only marriage and no abortions ever is "god's law" then let god enforce it. The US is only authorized to enforce US laws ... like that pesky 5thAm and the pesky 14thAm. You know, the ones which say "equal protection".
Equal Protection means that you have to give everyone the same opportunity as everyone else. [Not, as some folks believe, equal *results*, just equal opportunity]. If you don't give everyone the same opportunity, you have to have a darned good reason. And "gay marriage is icky" doesn't cut much legal cloth.
You want what's best for society, doya, Mrs V? Then why are you trying to dictate what that is? Why not let society -- and its laws and supra-laws -- figure it out for itself. Y'know, like we're supposed to... If the law says "gays are the only people prevented from marrying the person they want to" and the supra-law says "but you have to treat everyone the same", then guess what, Mrs V? Queers get to tie the knot. Or nobody does. Pick one.
This is one argument that the religious right is, I'm afraid, not merely on the eventual losing side, but they're taking an embarrassingly empty-headed approach to their eventual loss. This nation *will* have gay marriage eventually. Just like it was destined to rid itself of slavery and miscegenation laws. A nation based on equality will get to equality, even if the road is sometimes bumpy, and even if the manifestations of that equality sometimes turns other peoples' stomachs.
The alternative is to abdicate equality under the law in favor of a convenient "we know better than you do" despotism. This is what left-coast liberals and the religious right are both guilty of.
Odd, neither group understands it. |
|
rwilymz writes:
"First, Mrs V, I've gotta agree with Steve: you are self-obsessed. I'd go further than that: you're self-righteous. You know better than e-e-e-everybody else..."
Only a foolish invididual (you, stranger) could walk up to a complete stranger (me) and talk to and about them, in an anonymous forum "as if" they even know a thing about said person (me).. Only a silly stranger, cowering and hiding behind his little computer, on the anonymous Internet..
How do you know if *I'm* "self obsessed"?..How do you know if I do or don't like myself at all? Am I happy today? Sad? Impressed? Crushed to the depths? You don't know a thing about me, except ideas and words on a screen, and a few personal stories here and there..if you even know that at all..
And even if you had a million of my words here, stapled end to end, you would still not plummet who I am or the depths of *me*, which only God and my closest know..So what, really, do you know?
This is how your logic works and how you, stranger, come to logical(?) rational(?) conclusions about people? By walking up to them thumbing a nasty little virtual nose and talking at them..as if you known them and they are standing in your way?
What do *you* know except walking up to me in a virtual forum, and anonymously approaching me, like no one on the street, in a cowardly way, going on at the mouth about how *you* "know" 'the all" about *me*..
Well I don't know *you* mr.. But I know this little talk you're looking to open up actually makes *you* look like the very thing you accuse me, a perfect stranger to you, of..Your posturing and talk is self righteous, actually..
"Here's a hint: no you don't. Wanna complain because the inane liberals are turning the nation into a nanny state? treating us like 4 year-olds who don't know enough to not play in traffic? You're doing the same here, with this. "Only **we** know how people should pair up..." Yeah? Wyzat? Cuz you go to church? So do people who disagree with you."
Really, and what church do we go to? Oh really..On what street? What denomination? Do we tithe? Oh really..Take your sarcasm and go..Again, you know nothing about me, except you trying to talk about me as if you do..
"So who's right? Whose god can beat up whose?"
I think you've seen too many West Side Story rereuns pal. Learn to choose your battles better.
You're looking/sounding foolish..
"And just for the record, if straight-only marriage and no abortions ever is "god's law" then let god enforce it. The US is only authorized to enforce US laws ... like that pesky 5thAm and the pesky 14thAm. You know, the ones which say "equal protection"."
'Let God enforce it'..You talk, and appear, to be a nasty, whiney gay-or gay loving man, looking for an argument with a girl..Homosexuals and heterosexuals do not have to have the same rights to a thing God made for a man and woman alone..
mr. I have no more time for you..
"Equal Protection means that you have to give everyone the same opportunity as everyone else. [Not, as some folks believe, equal *results*, just equal opportunity]. If you don't give everyone the same opportunity, you have to have a darned good reason. And "gay marriage is icky" doesn't cut much legal cloth."
I am not sure why you are preaching to me *your* excuses for why judges have bent and twisted laws to pander to the perverts..We have all seen your Liberal excuses..all based on lies..
"You want what's best for society, doya, Mrs V? Then why are you trying to dictate what that is? Why not let society -- and its laws and supra-laws -- figure it out for itself. Y'know, like we're supposed to... If the law says "gays are the only people prevented from marrying the person they want to" and the supra-law says "but you have to treat everyone the same", then guess what, Mrs V? Queers get to tie the knot. Or nobody does. Pick one."
'Doya MrsV'? I didn't even read the rest of what you wrote..I quit at 'doya'..
"This is one argument that the religious right is, I'm afraid, not merely on the eventual losing side, but they're taking an embarrassingly empty-headed approach to their eventual loss. This nation *will* have gay marriage eventually. Just like it was destined to rid itself of slavery and miscegenation laws. A nation based on equality will get to equality, even if the road is sometimes bumpy, and even if the manifestations of that equality sometimes turns other peoples' stomachs."
'Equality' by your Liberal standard, is the same word used by Communists to level and control people..
"The alternative is to abdicate equality under the law in favor of a convenient "we know better than you do" despotism. This is what left-coast liberals and the religious right are both guilty of."
If you, stranger, consider God's standard "despotism", then you have much bigger problems than you let on..Too bad you caught me on a night, and moment, when I don't care a rats buns what you, or whoever, thinks about what I have to say..
No, since you have, clearly, shown you are just a harasser looking to bother and get a rise out of a Christian woman, and nothing more, go away..
You and I have no discussion..
We really don't..
What more is there to possibly say?
That you have happily declared your contempt for God and his people, and your 'right' to extol despots and despotism, and your love of lies and the human dregs..
Bully for you..
You've had your 5 minutes..take care
I give up talking to those who speak as you do..Today..
I have no time for people anymore who don't factor into my life, or future, as important to me or my life's meaning..
Of course, you could always talk more about things you seem to feel you have expert knowledge of..
Like the me nobody knows.. |
|
I'm surprised to see you've posted here again! From what little I've seen (and participated) in discussions on this website, reader commenst come in a burst for 1-2 after the article is posted, and then tail off to nothing in another day or so. Here the dialog lives on, Good!
In your previous postings, it seems like you get carried away and then later apologize for threats of violence. You remind me of some of the ladies who used to volunteer at my Parish's Religious Instruction program, I guess that's why I kind of like you despite all the hellfire & brimstone. I'm at work now, perhaps I can respond more substantively during lunch or this evening. Bye!
|
|
Back again, in the evening.
Mrs. V, I ask you to consider: which act do you think is more offensive in the eyes of our Lord, homosexuality or murder? The Bible speaks out against homosexuality most directly in Leviticus 18:22 and 20:13. (I've always thought that Genesis 19:(4-11) was more about the attempted rape of Lot's guests, rather than that it was homosexual rape). On the other hand, there is a COMMANDMENT against killing, #5 or #6 depending on who you ask. It's pretty clear to me that god frowns on killing more than he does homosexual acts.
Yet don't we Americans do alot of killing throughout the world these days? And aren't we often full of self-congratulation about it? Indeed, for many Americans our greatest heroes have distinguished themselves by their killing of our enemies. Doesn't it seem to you, as it does to me, that down here the majority second-guesses God, and exhibits a revulsion and outrage over the thought of Homosexuality that far exceeds any emotions they feel over the snuffing out of human lives. Should we really be more strict about gay sex than we are about murder?
Mrs V, the Bible has been used to justify many practices that endured for decades and even centuries before they were recognized as evil, and risen above. That slavery is practiced by many of the righteous through all the old and most of the new testaments was used by clergy throughout the South (& alot of the North) to justify negro slavery for our country's first century or so, before we learned better. That Eve was drawn from the rib of Adam, and succumbed to the wiles of the serpent causing them both to be banished from paradise, was an important argument against universal suffrage until early in this century, but we learned better.
To get an idea of where our Lord puts Homosexuality in his list of concerns, remember both the question and Jesus' response in Mathew 22:(36-39):
"Teacher what is the most important commandment in the law?"
Jesus answered:
"Love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul and mind." This is the first and most important commandment. The second most important commandment is like this one. And it is, " Love others as much as you love yourself."
Indeed, many people regard this as nearly the whole of the law, and think of all the rest as just fine-tuning.
If nothing else, please consider that our God reserves judgement and punishment to himself. Indeed, you and I can sin by judgement.
Now I may be about to lose you at this point but as other have annoyed you by pointing out, we do NOT live in a Christian Theocracy. However our God may regard Homosexuality, many citizens of our country do not believe in our (your & my) God, and we are specifically forbidden from imposing our religion on them. And when reasonable people consider the constitution without adding in the Bible, we time & time again conclude that all of our citizens, even the homosexual ones, deserve equal treatment.
Also, have you ever heard of "The Protocols of the Elders of Zion"? I would not be surprised if the same folks cooked up the documents you reference above. I'm running out of time here, but all I can tell you is that children (boys & girls) are preyed upon by both straight and gay pedophiles in pretty much equal percentages. Your average gay stranger is about as likely to be a child molester as is your average straight stranger.
BTW I'm straight, for the most part. But until a few decades ago the disapproval of many clergymen helped make my marriage illegal, as it's an interracial one.
|
|
"Mrs. V, I ask you to consider: which act do you think is more offensive in the eyes of our Lord, homosexuality or murder? The Bible speaks out against homosexuality most directly in Leviticus 18:22 and 20:13. (I've always thought that Genesis 19:(4-11) was more about the attempted rape of Lot's guests, rather than that it was homosexual rape). On the other hand, there is a COMMANDMENT against killing, #5 or #6 depending on who you ask. It's pretty clear to me that god frowns on killing more than he does homosexual acts."
First of all Flaming Liberal, I didn't, nor did I have any intention of "threaten"ing people on this broard. My previous comment there was quickly followed by a clarification and apology and I made it clear what I was saying there.
And which sin is "more" offensive to God is not the point! Various sins are worse than others, but all are hurtful in the eyes of God to the person doing them and other individuals.
Homosexuals are not people God "hates". But homosexual expressing as sexual is quite offensive to Him, as is any sex expression outside of His ordained plan of committed marriage.
It is wrong because it is not His plan and hurts others and those doing these sins. God finds these sins of homosexuality an abboration and a true offense in His eyes. Most of those supporting the homosexual "life" style here look to talk as you do to try to make an out for them, so they can try to make their sin less big or harmful in God's eyes.
In breaking one commandment you break them all Flaming. When I take from you it involves a lie to cover this removal of what is yours. God's Word says you would be given over to a debased mind which would call good evil and evil good and love a lie. The lie being that such behaviors are right, good or "natural", and that these men and women would beleive and love these lies. Of course taking another human life is the top of the worst of sins, but that does not change the fact that homosexuality is a very big sin in God's eyes and all of its expression. He destoyed a whole city because of it you know..See Genesis 19..
"Yet don't we Americans do alot of killing throughout the world these days? And aren't we often full of self-congratulation about it? Indeed, for many Americans our greatest heroes have distinguished themselves by their killing of our enemies. Doesn't it seem to you, as it does to me, that down here the majority second-guesses God, and exhibits a revulsion and outrage over the thought of Homosexuality that far exceeds any emotions they feel over the snuffing out of human lives. Should we really be more strict about gay sex than we are about murder?"
Flaming, homosexual sexual expression, ultimately, kills..The Bible says that such expression leads to death..It's very clear..
Now if you look in the Bible, you will also find that adultery, fornication(heterosexual or other sex outside of marriage "living together") also leads to death..This is not God's way of judging you, it is a direct exhortation.
I believe that when a nation like ours goes to send men to war it is a complex mystery. No one, liberal or conservative truly wants or likes war..Yet, while we are on the earth, because there are some men who's hearts are simply downright evil, example, men killing babies for their own justified 'holy' war, men must take up arms against those who are vigilantly our enemies..These wars are a nation's act of self defense!
Jesus said that in the end times there would be "wars and rumors of wars" why? Because men's hearts are eveil and there are some out there that are so evil their wickedness cannot be stopped except by force..
I don't like it any more than you do, but turning that dissatisfaction around to make your sin, or anyone's homosexual expression a thing that is "right" is not being honest with themselves and their argument is not cutting it.
"Mrs V, the Bible has been used to justify many practices that endured for decades and even centuries before they were recognized as evil, and risen above. That slavery is practiced by many of the righteous through all the old and most of the new testaments was used by clergy throughout the South (& alot of the North) to justify negro slavery for our country's first century or so, before we learned better. That Eve was drawn from the rib of Adam, and succumbed to the wiles of the serpent causing them both to be banished from paradise, was an important argument against universal suffrage until early in this century, but we learned better."
Today women have been hurt and harmed more by the fallout of Femanism than they have been helped Flaming Liberal. The selfishness, rebellion, and lack of unity and holiness, let alone mutual submission on the parts of women with their men, as marrid people, has left us with many broken homes and tattered families, and the refuse being a mere silhouette of what God intended families to be.
The pride, strife, and shunning of God's ordained roles and ways for how a Wife and woman should be, plus the damage it's done to men and their relationships to them, has been manifold. None of these things would have occured of people remembered God's Word and listened to His loving and unified plan for them from the bible.
"To get an idea of where our Lord puts Homosexuality in his list of concerns, remember both the question and Jesus' response in Mathew 22:(36-39): "Teacher what is the most important commandment in the law?" Jesus answered:
"Love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul and mind." This is the first and most important commandment. The second most important commandment is like this one. And it is, " Love others as much as you love yourself." "
When we love you as we would ourselves, we do you a GREAT disservice to tell you a lie..The argument about "Love" and "peace" are some of the most damaging to God's message when they remove their beloved accompanying sister, Truth, and justice. I cannot help you in the slightest if I water down God's Word and go along with your hope that "God" and His "love" will be the thing that gives a nod to homosexual sin and, therefore, to you..
All your replies here to me are basically about your looking to work around God's Word and get past or glaze over the Truth. I cannot love anyone with God's love and do that to them. So I can't do that to you.
"Indeed, many people regard this as nearly the whole of the law, and think of all the rest as just fine-tuning. If nothing else, please consider that our God reserves judgement and punishment to himself. Indeed, you and I can sin by judgement."
You can't argue the Bible and God's admonition against homosexuality by saying the "rest" is "fine tuning"..You close off your ears and heart that way..And make an excuse for these things..
I lost my dear Cousin because he believed the lies many times for many years..Perhaps, if I had been more loving, and more strong with the Truth, dear would still be alive today..
"Now I may be about to lose you at this point but as other have annoyed you by pointing out, we do NOT live in a Christian Theocracy. However our God may regard Homosexuality, many citizens of our country do not believe in our (your & my) God, and we are specifically forbidden from imposing our religion on them. And when reasonable people consider the constitution without adding in the Bible, we time & time again conclude that all of our citizens, even the homosexual ones, deserve equal treatment."
I think your definition of "equal" has become altered and missued, not to mention abused. There was never anything but Christian-wise written down by our fore fathers. And none of them made any accomadation for homosexuals, because it is a Biblical evil and was not even thought of in their day as a law to be mad einto.
Today evil men who use gays as pawns and who seek to defile, hurt, habituate, enslave and control men via their lusts, have taken those early words and missused them and today men cry for things that are not, and were NEVER their legacy, like Marriage, under the banner of their excuse of "equal treatment"..Not everyone can have the same rights to the same things. Any child has no right to drive a car, there is too much harm to come there. Likewise, not everyone who claims a thing as marriage is their "right" has an inheritance to it..
"Also, have you ever heard of "The Protocols of the Elders of Zion"? I would not be surprised if the same folks cooked up the documents you reference above. I'm running out of time here, but all I can tell you is that children (boys & girls) are preyed upon by both straight and gay pedophiles in pretty much equal percentages. Your average gay stranger is about as likely to be a child molester as is your average straight stranger."
I have heard of that paperwork. It can be very confusing to one who is not very informed about politics or political history. I read it myself a few years ago, and was quite confused after reading it myself..
I have toked it off as an ant-Semitic piece of propaganda. Although we *DO* agree there is an agenda against gays, Christians and people of faith, indeed, against all mankind..
But mainly it will end up towards the people of faith, exibiting itself as Monism and a one world order and that kind of thing..
I don't buy our President a part of this..I think that is why he has caught such flack..because he is not a Liberal..
"BTW I'm straight, for the most part. But until a few decades ago the disapproval of many clergymen helped make my marriage illegal, as it's an interracial one."
Well, my apologies for any implication of your not being a heterosexual on here..
Then I'm sure you know a man or women is who they are regardless of color..and that a black man can't change his color..
But a gay man can change these things..
p.s. yes as of now..good intentions..I TRULY NEED to stop spending so much of my time here..
argh..:-(
|
|
Mrs. V, I gave it the best shot I could, and I can see that I'm not changing your mind about anything. I like you anyway, peace be with you. |
|
Flaming Liberal Multiculturalist writes:
"Agreeing To Disagree..Mrs. V, I gave it the best shot I could, and I can see that I'm not changing your mind about anything. I like you anyway, peace be with you."
I'm glad you "like me" Flaming Liberal Multi. In a day and time in history when it seems, increasingly, some are hard pressed to "like" anyone, I am glad you said that about me..
That reminds me of that old Mash re-run where Alan Alda says: "It's nice to be nice to the nice.."
Pity more can't be that way..
Even some Christians, sadly, can jump to awful, untrue conclusions of each other, so much so one can hardly hear back from them even in a simple email these days in a timely fashion, if they do at all..
Talk about no respect..:^'
So I appreciate that you "like" me Mr. Liberal.
If for anything than for the simple implication that you may, in some cases anyway, be a nice fellow or a good judge of character..
Which is not to suggest I'm looking to brag on myself here..
You're right, I will never vote for Liberal causes, they have gone too far into Socialist terrian..
But I *do* approve of courtesy, and common human decency.
Not to mention just general good will that you seem to share towards me, so sorely lacking by folks out there these days..
Christian or not, regardless their point-of-view..
|
|
|