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Tuesday, June 30, 2009
Dennis Prager :: Townhall.com Columnist
Stoning of Soraya M.: See This Film (or Stop Complaining About Hollywood)
by Dennis Prager
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With the possible exception of university administrations, there is no institution as bereft of courage as Hollywood.

In Hollywood courage is defined as savaging oil, power and tobacco executives on film. Or producing yet another movie on the evils of the Iraq War. But if courage means doing what is unpopular -- especially among one’s peers -- I can recall precious few politically incorrect films made in the last decade ("The Dark Knight" comes to mind as a possible exception).

How many politically incorrect movies has Hollywood made in the last generation? How many films, for instance, have depicted communist evil? Given that Communism murdered more than 100 million innocents -- in peacetime! -- and enslaved about 1 billion more, one would think that Hollywood would have made a fair number of movies depicting the horrors of communism. But aside from "Dr. Zhivago" and "The Killing Fields," I cannot think of any. There are, of course, innumerable films depicting Nazi evil -- as well there should be -- but it takes no courage to make films depicting Nazis as evil.

Likewise, given Sept. 11, the slaughter of innocents around the world, and the atrocities within the Muslim world committed by “Islamists,” “Islamic fundamentalists,” “jihadists,” “Muslim radicals” “Islamofascists” -- or whatever other term one prefers -- one would think that Hollywood would have made many films on this subject. But it hasn't.

Yet, now, released as if by Providence the week after the fraudulent elections in Iran and the suppression and murder of Iranian dissidents, is a film about the nature of the radical Muslims who govern Iran. Titled "The Stoning of Soraya M.," the film depicts events based on the true story of a woman stoned to death in a rural village in Iran in 1986 for allegedly committing adultery.

If you want to understand the type of people who run Iran, see this film. If you want to understand why men and women risk their lives to demonstrate against the fascist theocracy that rules Iran, see this film. The film is about the type of people who become “supreme leader” (Ali Khamanei) or president of Iran (Mahmoud Ahmadinejad). It is about their mendacity, their use of religion to commit barbarity, and, of course, their despicable treatment of women.

And don’t see it solely in order to understand what the dissidents in Iran are fighting -- though that would be an entirely valid reason. See it also because it is a powerful theatrical and emotional experience. Washington Post reviewer Dan Zak wrote that he wept while watching the movie. The Wall Street Journal described "The Stoning of Soraya M." in these words: “This is classic tragedy in semi-modern dress that means to horrify, and does so more successfully than any film in recent memory.” Los Angeles Times film reviewer Kevin Thomas wrote that the film, achieves “the impact of a Greek tragedy through its masterful grasp of suspense and group psychology, and some superb acting.” And Claudia Puig of USAToday called the film “emotionally explosive,” a “shattering and powerful drama.”

On the other hand, Amnesty International loathed the film. Which is another good reason to see it. This organization is morally confused. It has become a leftist organization in the guise of a human rights organization. It calls the film “sensationalist” because “the audience response is likely to be disgust and revulsion at Iranians themselves, who are portrayed as primitive and blood-thirsty savages.” I wonder if there are 10 people who see this film who will then conclude that Iranians in general -- as opposed to many religious fundamentalists among them -- are “primitive and bloodthirsty savages.”

Furthermore, Amnesty International argues, Iranians and foreign human rights organizations are already fighting for women and against such atrocities as stoning. Therefore, the film is unnecessary. If you don’t follow that argument, you are not alone.

Finally, the most important reason to see the film could be this:

Many of us lament Hollywood’s lack of courage, its lack of moral seriousness, and its political correctness. Here, then, is a courageous, morally deep, and politically incorrect film that mainstream reviewers -- as cited above -- have lavished praise on. It should be the ideal film for serious Americans who properly complain about Hollywood’s offerings. But if a riveting drama with a courageous theme, Oscar-level acting, which is as relevant as today’s headlines, fails at the box office, Hollywood will have been vindicated.

It therefore seems clear to me that those who do not see this film have forfeited the right to complain about Hollywood.

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About The Author
Dennis Prager is a radio show host, contributing columnist for Townhall.com, and author of 4 books including Happiness Is a Serious Problem: A Human Nature Repair Manual.
 
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I understandably get a little leery
when Townhall starts promoting films (once bitten, twice shy).

The last one everybody kept hyping was the terrible documentary by Ben Stein, "Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed", which was pure unadulterated garbage -- and hell to sit through.

This one sounds good. But Townhall raving and hyping films sometimes has a tendency to backfire.

The real question.

You're right, Dennis.

In our right-center nation, the real question is this - does main-stream America have what it takes... to do what's right, and to support works like these.

We shall see.

Am I Wrong?
Why do I have the impression that liberal, elite, Democrat women do not see Islam as a religion against women? I get the impression they would be fine with having to cover up in public and wear a veil as long as it meant a Republican was not the president. Am I wrong?

I have not seen this film, but will make a point to do so. Normally I have zero interest in anything Hollywood produces so I am happy to be informed when something like this comes out.

Cyclist:
You're misinformed. Liberal women do not support Islam's subjegation and (mis)treatment of females.

You'll have to look in the direction of TH columnist Phyllis Schlafly for that.

Phyllis hates feminists. SHE distains "working women" (even though she is one). You get the ugly feeling that Phyllis Schlafly would be perfectly content having women dressed in burkas --- with having a country that subjegates women and criminalizes homosexuality and stones (only female) adulterers and governs with an intermixing of church and state.


Phyllis Schlafly sometimes seems to be fighting for not more openness and liberation and a diminishment of theocracy -- but, rather, to shift the United States in the social direction of Iran. I wish more columnists would condemn this woman.

I May Be Misinformed, But . . .
where are the Liberal women shouting from the rooftops about the evils of Islam? I hear it from Conservative women, but that's it. I believe they don't do it because it makes Republicans look good.

As for Phyllis Schlafly I think you are misinformed. She tries to represent all women, even the ones that prefer to not work outside the home. How do your Liberal female friends feel about those types?

Films that depict the evils of Communism
You want to see the evils of Communism portrayed on film? Try Costa-Gavras' THE CONFESSION or Caspar Wrede's A DAY IN THE LIFE OF IVAN DENISOVICH, both 1970.
A lot of the Iranian revolutionaries support Mousavi, who is just as much of an Israel-hating nutjob as Ahmadinajad. That doesn't mean they should be beaten and shot in the street or thrown off pedestrian overpasses.

The Amnesty International review
For the record, I think this is the review that Mr. Prager refers to:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/amnesty-international/sensati onalist-film-explo_b_220252.html

Liberal violence....
"And I could seriously spit on Phyllis Schlafly. ... She's opposed to ... garden-variety feminism like women fighting for equal pay...."

It's funny that you could "seriously spit" on her. I wonder if you would do that to a man who could easily fight back? Why do leftists like you always resort to, or threaten intimidating violence?

Meanwhile, you think she's against feminism because she doesn't support the government determining whether it is "fair" for a teacher (who is more likely to be a woman) to make less money than a sanitation worker (who is more likely to be a man) and eventually getting involved in the wage setting business?

If you are a supporter of such socialism, why not just tell the truth about it? Why hide it in rhetoric?

Will
"Cyclist
Go to Huffington Post.

strike one!

"And I could seriously spit on Phyllis Schlafly. She can't even accept her own gay son. "
i am sure you know the intamate details of her family

strike two

"Again, I spit on this woman. And will dance on her grave."

stike three , your out!



books
Along with viewing this movie i would recommend 2 books.

Surrender : appeasing Islam, sacrificing freedom / Bruce Bawer
For Will's benefit Bawer describes himself as a gay liberal. He also lives in Europe and has a close up view of the goings on of our Islamic friends and their quest to bring Sharia law to Europe and beyond.
They must be stopped why we must defeat radical Islam and how we can do it] / Brigitte Gabriel.


I will never forget the hypocrisy
Under Bush, Hollywood made anti-war, pro-terrorists, anti-Bush crap that didn't sell, but they didn't care. It was all about creating a certain reality for the world to see. Now that their guy is in, they start making movies that they should have started making after 9/11 to show people why we have to have a viable presence in this part of the world. They are no less than partisan hypocrites.

The farce that is Amnesty Int’l
If those words sound familiar – that you shouldn’t see this film because you’re too stupid to not have a visceral knee-jerk reaction toward Iranians in general – it’s because the same brainless criticism was leveled at “The Passion of the Christ” five years ago.

Remember how upon seeing that film, Christians were going to burn down synagogues and slaughter Jews in the streets? Oops, d@mn, didn’t quite go down that way, did it? Now we have an expose of people who actually would commit the aforementioned atrocities, and don’t even need a movie to motivate them.

Amnesty International forfeited its credibility long ago as a vanguard of human rights. Their condemnation of "The Stoning of Soraya M." is one of the best endorsements the producers could ever ask for.

Willie
"And I could seriously spit on Phyllis Schlafly. ... She's opposed to ... garden-variety feminism like women fighting for equal pay...."

HA! COWARD! You get spitting mad at Ms. Schlafly for "opposing garden-variety feminism" but nary a peep from you about islam's abhorrent treatment of women?

You're on a thread about a true story of a woman STONED by radical islamists for a fake adultery charge, and all you can get worked up over is Ms. Schlafly? HA! You probably fancy yourself a brave champion of women's rights. Pathetic loser.

Nope
I was going to see this film, until people like Prager and Medved started recommended it. These two, and their fellow neocons are constantly trying inspire fear and hatred among Americans for the Muslim world. Gee could it have to do with the fact that they are Jewish and want America to be a belligerent force against the Muslim world on behalf of Israel?

And according to the Amnesty International review, the film is a grossly inaccurate depiction of the Iranian people as primitive barbarians.

And there are a lot of people who fall right into the trap. Like bostguy112. Brigitte Gabriel is a neocon tool. Her entire reason for living is to generate fear and hatred of Muslims.

If Prager were Iranian, he would be on the side of the Mullahs (i.e., the religious conservatives). And he would see the protesters as evil leftists.

Phylo out.

Will, What's Your Problem with Expelled?
I saw Expelled with my wife and one of my friends. We were all impressed with how Ben Stein exposed atheist, leftist professors using justify stifling free speech to preserve "scientific truth." Like communists, these professors are really concerned about their immoral agenda being questioned and ulitmately demolished. It's Stein's free speech angle that makes a potentially dry science documentary into a film that is accessible to the non-scientist crowd.

No wonder the leftist media and Hollywood tried to destroy this movie sight unseen.

Cowards
Prager says that the biggest cowards are university administrations and Hollywood are cowards.

What about major corporations?

And what about right wing shock jocks? It would take real courage for someone like Prager to call out a guy like Rush Limbaugh or Sean Hannity on some of their lying and fear mongering, which are daily occurrences. But you will never see him do that. He doesn't have that kind of moral courage.

Heck, he doesn't even have the moral courage to answer my disagreeing e-mails.

Phylo
You sound defensive. It is easy to say some one is fearmongering. Please be specific in your accusations. I don't know what you are talking about.

Phylo
I'm sure her shirt is referring to traitors like yourself and Nancy Pelosi.

Phylo Se Fiser
"And there are a lot of people who fall right into the trap. Like bostguy112. Brigitte Gabriel is a neocon tool. Her entire reason for living is to generate fear and hatred of Muslims.

Why do you suppose she lives to generate fear and hatred. Did she wake up one day and say " you know i think i will write ( 2 that i know of)books warning against the islamo nazis just because i can. "So she really doesnt believe any of what she writes and growing up in Lebanon she wouldnt have been in a position to see the religion of peace folks up close. i notice you didnt meantion Bawer who is a gay lib, what would be his incentive for over reacting to all this? Is he a right wing tool also?

Phylo Se Fiser
I'm sure you wouldnt have a problem if she was wearing a "Che" tee shirt. Oh Che is so cool (but he was a murdering pri_k) yes... but ... well he was sooooo cool......

@Phylo Se Fiser
Let's see:

*Our liberal President waits a couple days before weakly denouncing the Mullahs' violent crackdown on the Iranian people.

*The secular media wastes more air time and ink on a dead pop star than on Iranian protesters who are still being killed as I type:

http://newsbusters.org/blogs/tom-blumer/2009/06/27/iran-fad ing-media-attention

*A group of "pro-woman" Hollywood types visited Iran a few months to kiss up to Mullahs instead of denouncing their woman-stoning ways:

http://bighollywood.breitbart.com/jtsimpson/2009/03/25/team -oscar-praises-film-womens-rights-in-iran/

Given all this, is it any surprise that with certain exceptions (e.g., Huffington Post), that major liberal movie critics don't like the un-PC (i.e., anti-mullah) flick "The Stoning of Soraya M."?

Politically incorrect?
It is a bit of a stretch to call a film about a woman being victimized as "politically incorrect".

Phylo:
Go hug a suicide bomber, you terrorist sympathizing piece of trash. I'm glad to see you agree with the stoning of women. I feel bad for your ole lady. Let's see, I'm sure you're also in favor of executing gays, Christians, & suspected aldulterers in public. The middle ages called. They want their mindset back.

But is it entertainment?
Please don't think I think of this film as superficial. I don't. I think it is important and WAY overdue.
But let's not use the yardstick of numbers of viewers. Americans are notorious for spending their money on sheer junk (Transformers 2 anyone?) than a movie that is a call to awareness.
I, too, am not above this. I am looking forward to my two hour escape and plan to see Trans..2. But I also plan to see "The Stoning..".
The good news it that a movie doesn't have to have the "numbers" to be sucessful. It sounds like this movie is sucessful already.
God bless all who believe.
Bill in NJ


I don't know
if I can see yet another film on the horrors a country inflicts on its own citizens. I have seen enough WWII movies and the horrors of the Holocaust, and my own relatives from Poland lived through Communism. The comfort (if you can call it that) is that both situations are in the past. But stuff like this that still exists in Iran and other parts of the Middle East is current! This makes me shudder to know that only a several-hour-plane-ride-away exists countries that live in the Middle Ages. We complain about the USA and "injustices" but we've got nothing compared to the 10th century mentality of some of these "theocratic" regimes. The BEST thing the citizens of Iran can do not only for themselves but the rest of the world, is to TOPPLE their current government. They've got my support and prayers! Let's all live like people already and stop treating people like cattle or worse!

By the way
...I DID see that movie, "A Day in the Life of Ivan Denisovich" a number of years ago, when I was reading a lot of Russian literature. The horrors of a communist labor camp in Siberia I believe. The sheer monotony of the existence of these poor souls would drive one out of one's mind! From what I remember of the movie, it was about literally "throwing people away" to labor camps, focusing on Ivan and his daily "routine." Not a long movie but a powerful one. Labor camps, stoning, it's all the same...uncivilized!

Phylo Se Fiser
Phylo, you must have been mean in your disagreeing emails, if you had made a intelligent statement and the point had been valid, then Dennis would have answered you. It amazes me that so many liberal low-thinkers come to this web site. I give them some credit, but then they write their mindless comments, that they probably get from some left-wing site. oh well, I will see this movie, and will recommend it to my friends.

Bill
I agree with you. If this was shown tomorrow night on free tv most would watch American Idol or some dancing show. I am not saying i never watch tv or that i am the most well read person but i at least try to read books and keep up with what is going on. I shouldnt have to say this but are all Muslims bad, of course not but out of i believe 1.2 billion of them if 10% want to kill the unbelievers or make us live under Sharia i think that poses a problem. When Ahmadinajad says over and over he wants to blow Israel off the map i tend to believe him.

NavyBrat
I couldn't have said it better myself. Thank you. A person could have a breakdown arguing with the stone-headed liberals that post here. For, it is much like talking to a brick wall.

So Phylo
Rather than seeing the film for yourself and then make a judgement, you refuse to see it because two columnists recommend it and that's the best way to judge a film you will never see???? Figures.

I wonder...
...what the young fellows like "will" and "filo" think they are accomplishing here? Both suggest that because Townhall or Dennis Prager speaks highly of a film it is therefore seditious in some way.

Then, one wonders quizzically, why don't you boys go somewhere where you are not so distrustful of everything around you.

Liberals are always frightened of the people. Hence neither “will” nor his friends in Amnesty want us to see the film for fear we might get a bad impression of Iranians. My dear children, the sorts of troglodytes who worry you so exist in all political spheres at all times and are a constant in human history. Party sites like Koz and Huff are as every bit as filled with ugly hate filled people as any rightist site.

Most of will see this film, and just as we did the magnificent "The Kite Runner," conclude that there is a ugliness in Islam that is undeniable and must be addressed aggressively in order for the rest of us to call ourselves human.

However, it does not require the nuking of all Islamic territory, but condemnation and a spotlight of stellar brilliance kept on such barbarism until the earth is rid of it forever.

The vast majority of people here and on most political websites do not require effete organizations like Amnesty International to direct our outrage. We can aim it perfectly all by ourselves.

And once you two quit dancing around the issue like bemused auditors at a university lecture, can you find anything other than disgust and sorrow in your heart that any human being in the 21st century is murdered under a mindless barrage of stone weapons?

Why not instead of worrying about the reactions of civilized people, condemn the actions of the uncivilized. Get off your elitist high horses. You both sound ridiculous, and worse, immoral.

Phylo out of your mind...
and possibly an anti semite? Iran has been shouting "Death to America!" for 30 years now. History didn 't begin the day you were born Phylo. The personal attack on Prager has no grounding.

Phylo
Why do you assume the T-shirt means waterboarding Arabs? Do you have any evidence? The U.S. has waterboarded more Americans than Arabs. Maybe it means Americans. Why don't you actually reasearch one of your claims and present evidence to back it? Like, maybe before Haiti freezes over?

18ZW9
Oh, god, I hadn't even caught baby filo's little temper tantrum that Dennis Prager hadn't answered his emails. The ridiculous little child is so full of airs I'm surprised he doesn't just float away.

He's like the high school boy who's mother was so very proud of him in the Drama Club's "Guys and Dolls" that now he's walking self-importantly around New York with his wafer-thin resume under his arm demanding Broadway producers cast him as Henry IV.

He's so completely tone deaf he thinks the sounds of doors slamming is applause. What a laughable little fart.


Phylo
Got your knickers in a twist again? What happened, did the big boys chase you home from school again? Pants you in front of the girls? Make fun of your acne? Run along and get back in mommys basement, she'll kiss it and make it go away.

philo out
Lets hope so

Tommy
"Liberals are always frightened of the people. Hence neither “will” nor his friends in Amnesty want us to see the film for fear we might get a bad impression of Iranians"

Excellent point. Thats why they live with the menality that "Hey if there not doing it to us, why should we even worry about it?
My guess is that liberals refuse to believe in the saying "Evil reigns when good men do nothing" because in the eyes of liberals, there is no such thing as evil...only good.

Will
Its documented by their own words that the radical Islam folks want to kill gays. And of course they already have killed gays for being GAY. Did Will or Philo mention that. Of course i am over reacting i guess, at least thats what they would say. Maybe i shouldnt worry about them killing gays because i am not gay.

Tommy
I made a mistake in my last post when I said that according to liberals there is no such thing as evil only good...The only thing that is evil to liberals are those that disagree with what they have to say. I forgot that when conservatives disagree with liberals, it disrupts that aura around them and they hate when that happens.

Good and Evil
There are no "good" or "evil" groups, there are only "good" or "evil" individuals (who subscribe to "good" or "evil" value systems). Even within groups that seem to subscribe to "good" or "evil" value systems, there will be individuals who take an opposite course.

SIGNS OF THE NEXT 9/11?
On April 16th Barack Obama released a selection of the redacted Torture Memos depicting the waterboarding of three Al Qaida terrorists. This triggered a fierce debate about national security culminating in the duel between Obama and D*ck Cheney. Unnoticed by everyone was that April 16th was an ominous day, a day of shock and horror for America, the anniversary of one of the worst mass murder attacks in US history: the Virginia Tech Massacre; a possible sign of coming catastrophe, a sign of the next 9/11.

Click my name and read my piece: The Opening of Pandora's Box: Nancy Pelosi, Torturegate and Signs of the Next 9/11.

Good anti-commie films
Dennis, don't forget such classics as "Red Dawn" or the "Rambo" series of films. If you want to see a great movie about communism in East Germany, watch "The Lives of Others." One that hits both communism and Islam is "The Kite Runner." Prager, you just don't get out much, I guess, because there are some excellent films that you're unaware of, but when you look at the total volumes of films, the left loves to ignore the evils of communism and socialism.

Yes, Prager is right.
Hopefully, we will see a shift from those who tolerate evil to the realization that this evil probably will attack them.

Prager's Profile in Courage
He avoided fighting communists in Vietnam and the draft by getting almost as many deferments as Cheney and is a stalward apologist for the worst kinds of behavior from the right. Although he beat the drums loudly for the Iraq war, his military-age son, taking after his father, is not wearing the uniform of his country. Viet vet Bob Herbert said that when people encourage others to send their children off to war but exempt their own, it is a form of depravity. Prager has answered my emails twice, both times curtly and dismissively; you're not missing anything Phylo. The man is intellectually dishonest and a moral and physical coward. BTW why would a Brooklyn College graduate claim he "went to an Ivy League school" when it was part of his draft avoidance and he failed to earn a degree from the institution? Misleading or downright dishonest? We report you decide.

Sophie
"If you had any courage Prager
you would try to enlighten these far right haters who can't grasp the fact that, while extremist islam is vile and vicious, the vast majority of muslims are peaceful decent people."

The vast majority of Iranians don't run Iran the mullahs do. The same can be said for most countries in the middle east.

"Why do you support the iranians protesting in the streets if you condemn islam?"

Prager has never condemned Islam. He condemns radical Islam and speaks out against the way it is completely ignored by the left. Obama won't even use the word "terrorist" for God's sake! You cannot bury your head in the sand and simply wait for this problem to go away.

"You do know the rallying call of these moderate young iranians is "allah akbar" don'tchya?"

It's a symbolic gesture. If you think the typical 25 year old Iranian in blue jeans twittering away is a hardcore Islamic you are demented.


"What have you done Mr. Prager that is so impressive or courageous?"

What have you done? He's at least in the arena, all you seem to be doing is whining, reading books and watching movies...


Sophie:
"Why do you support the iranians protesting in the streets if you condemn islam?"

He didn't say anything about "condemning Islam." He is condemning the medieval practices of Sharia. You know, that system under which, if your ole man thinks that you've wronged or shamed him in some way, he can pulicly STONE you?

"You do know the rallying call of these moderate young iranians is "allah akbar"
don'tchya?"

Uh, yeah. They're also shouting "death to the dictator." But you, in your all encompassing wisdom (or lack thereof) know that, "don'tchya?"

Keep trying little one. Maybe one day, you can swim in the deep end with the big kids. Until then, stay in the shallow end. It's more fitting to your level of competency & your mindset.

Sophie...
"Scared of books Kimmy?
not surprising."

No. I just don't see how you reading them is "courageous". Nice to see a liberal break out the ad hominem attacks so quickly. Not surprising...

"The young protestors are muslims. Like the vast majority of people in the middle east."

So? Apparently you hold onto the belief the you can't be a muslim without being a terrorist more than Prager does. Who cares if they are muslim or not?

"The extremists may have the power (for now), but they don't represent the majority of muslims."

Again irrelevant. The Nazis didn't represent the majority of germans during world war 2 either. If only we had your wisdom in 1944 we could have skipped the invasion and waited for that whole world war thing to blow over...

" Thank god (or allah!) that we finally have a president who understands the middle east and its diplomacy!"

I think the list of things Obama doesn't understand is FAR longer than the list of things he does understand. He totally hung theses young Iranians out to dry and sided with the corrupt mullahs.

"I shall especially enjoy the 4th this year! It'll be nice to be a patriotic american NOT ashamed of their president for the first time in eight years!"

You can bash Bush all you want. In 25 years Obama will be a stain on the history books and Bush will be more appreciated than he is today.



Michael, you lose Reply #6
In debate, the first person that attempts a response by attacking his opponent rather than offering a succinct and verifiable alternative to the counterpoint, loses.

Therefore your posts have now all been invalidated by virtue of the fact that you have admitted no argument that refutes Praeger's comments. Any subsequent posts are invalidated by virtue of YOUR tactic...undermining the character of the author.

Dennis, thank you for writing a column with numerous examples, civil rhetoric and no lily-livered bashing. You said Amnesty International was 'morally confused'. If that doesn't go down as one of the most civil understatements I don't know what does. They bash AMerica and virtually ignore hundreds of other regions that openly commit atrocities. Who knows why, they're confused.

Will,liberal women DOsupport subjugation
of women. Every single time that they bash America and don't bash Iran (or insert Islamofascist region of choice), or pretend that there is nothing besides oil that would be reason to fight Islamofascists.
Most importantly they don't acknowledge that the ONLY reason that they CAN whinge and throw out ridiculously unvalidated shrieks is because they live in a country that is among the few that believes that their foul speech and hypocrisy deserves to allowed through freedom...which is not free.

Phylo
"Can you people not see the moral depravity of that t-shirt?"
___________________________________________________________

Phylo, you can't see the moral depravity of a woman being killed by a crowd throwing rocks at her!

Kite Runner
Someone else mentioned it as well, and I thought I'd drop its name. You should definitely see it.

I'm planning to see Stoning this weekend. Man, it's hard to watch such heavy tragedy! But it is important and we do have to face the uncomfortable and ugly truths in the mediated space of the cinema.

I just don't understand the dichotomy that Prager sets up against Hollywood, as though Hollywood does not present uncomfortable tragic material for us to think about.

Is this film not a by-product of Hollywood? With stars and accolades and fanfare?

I guess Prager's whole job is not really to enlighten people but to continue the endless circling left vs right. It just seems on issues like this one so... petty. I know it's for money, and it kind of makes me sick.

...
"Is this film not a by-product of Hollywood? With stars and accolades and fanfare?"

Did you even read the article? Had you even skimmed the title you would have noticed that your comment is off base.

"I guess Prager's whole job is not really to enlighten people but to continue the endless circling left vs right."

Lol, do you have any idea who Dennis Prager is? All he does is search for truth through logic and reason.

"It just seems on issues like this one so... petty. I know it's for money, and it kind of makes me sick."

Prager doesn't need the money. He does what he does because he wants to make the world better. Hollywood, on the other hand, operates almost exclusively to make money.

evil
I think Prager's role is not to keep pointing out left vs right, but to point out true evil in this world.
Some people just dont believe that there is true evil.

What about Fallujah ...?
Why hasn't Hollywood made a film about the atrocities committed by American troops against thousands of Iraqi civilians in Fallujah, Iraq?

Why hasn't Hollywood made a film about the indiscriminate bombing deaths of thousands of innocent women and children by US and NATO planes in Afghanistan?

Why hasn't Hollywood made a film about the continuing illegal detention of thousands of alleged terrorists in prisons like Bagram airforce base in Afghanistan?

Why hasn't Hollywood made a film about the innocent detainees released from Guantanamo without any charges or trials like the 4 Uighur men now living in Bermuda?

Why hasn't Hollywood made a film about the deaths of innocent civilians in remote Waziristan caused by US drones? Sure you can kill a couple of terrorists at the expense of hundreds of civilians.

So many movies to make, so short a time!

Paranoid
I just don't understand the dichotomy that Prager sets up against Hollywood, as though Hollywood does not present uncomfortable tragic material for us to think about.
________________________________________________________
Praeger is asking why Hollywood has never made movies since 9-11 about the the bravery and grit of the war against terror, the movies they have made have been if not anti-US certainly disproportionately critical. They have served to perpetuate and establish the myth 'Bush Lied' to the point of fact now.
It is a source of wonder why there have not been a rash of movies made about the day of 9-11, it contained all of the intrigue and mayhem that HW relishes, yet a dearth of portrayals.

@paranoidmystic
I attended the panel of the "Stoning" cast and crew at the 2008 Value Voters Summit. The panel noted how hard it was to find a Hollywiid studio that would back the film. This article goes into greater detail:

http://www.worldmag.com/articles/15561

One thread I noticed in the panel discussion was how AFRAID Hollywood types were in being connected to this film. The fear is understandable since in the Netherlands a Muslim immigrant turned terrorist brutally murdered Theo van Gogh, whose last film criticized Muslim's treatment of women. (Sound familiar.)

So, Prager is sadly correct that Hollywood's creative courage frequently evaporates when their lives are at stake.


"The ultimate measure of a man is not where he stands in moments of comfort and convenience, but where he stands at times of challenge and controversy."

Martin Luther King, Jr.

I used to believe
that liberalism is a disease. No, its just plain lack of common sense...no, its just stupidity

Ralphie:
"Why hasn't Hollywood made a film about the atrocities committed by American troops against thousands of Iraqi civilians in Fallujah, Iraq?"

Because there WEREN'T any, you military hating coward.

"Why hasn't Hollywood made a film about the indiscriminate bombing deaths of thousands of innocent women and children by US and NATO planes in Afghanistan?"

Why make a movie about it? We have suicide bomber hugging surrender monkies like you, the "news media," & the Dem traitors in Congress to tell us every time a kid's hair is ruffled by so much as a shock wave from one of our bombs. Guess what? Bad stuff happens in war. That's why it's called "war" & not "disagreement".

"Why hasn't Hollywood made a film about the innocent detainees released from Guantanamo without any charges or trials like the 4 Uighur men now living in Bermuda?"

They did. It was called "Rendition." And please spare us the crocodile tears about the "terrorists in paradise (on Earth)."

"Why hasn't Hollywood made a film about the deaths of innocent civilians in remote Waziristan caused by US drones? Sure you can kill a couple of terrorists at the expense of hundreds of civilians."

Who cares? Talk to your man, Oh Bummer. He's increased these missions. Guess the people who live in those villages shouldn't allow the terrorists to quarter themselves there.

Here's one for you: Why hasn't Hollywood made a movie about the idiots (like you) who think that if we just "play nice," the bad guys won't want to kill ANOTHER 3000 citizens? And IN that movie, why don't they depict the utter SHOCK on the faces of those terrorist sympathizing fools (like you) when another 3000 actually DO die? Bet THAT would be a blockbuster. We'll call it "Sedition."





Then the evil is money, y'all,
not liberal bias.

I do get your point, that a film of this type hadn't been made since Kite Runner -- which is to say an honest tragedy that portrays the larger system of an Islamic country in a negative light.

However, there's no shortage of media dreck that have chosen indiscriminate arabs/muslim/vaguely-middle-eastern caricatures as their villain du jour.

Honestly, I think the friction the film makers had was in creating such a challenging and disturbing piece, not in offending the sensibilities of America-hating Hollywood.

As a button pusher in the industry, I'm well aware that making a film is basically impossible. The suits who run distribution companies think in terms of returns on the dollar -- and I can imagine why a film like this one would be a tough sell.

In the entertainment industry as I've been exposed to it, executives are much more likely to be in the mold of Jack Donaghey from 30 rock than a liberal like myself.

I just think it's a little bit delusional to imagine the entertainment industry as having a liberal agenda. It's like imagining the fastfood industry has an agenda to make you fat. If McDonald's thought you'd buy spinach salad, that's what they'd put on their combo #1.

I do agree with Prager and all y'all that it's very important this film has a high turnout! If we want more thoughtful, provocative and challenging film, we need to get our butts in the seats and vote with the realest form of democracy out there: the almighty dollar!

Bleh
Terrorist, 9/11, socialism, Nazi, democrat, republican, homosexuals, terrorist, Russia, Iran, North Korea, AIDS, Islam, Europe, WMDs, nuclear weapons, terrorist, Osama Bin Linden, China, terrorist, terrorist, terrorist.

Michael @12:47PM
I take it from your post that you believe that military service in combat is a prerequisite to write about war or apparently to even issue an opinion on a movie. Now I will state up front that while I did serve in the Army Reserves I never saw combat. I was going through AIT at Ft Sill during Desert Storm.

Anyone dense enough to think that only military vets should have the right to speak about war, the military or any subject they choose know very little about basic Constitutional rights and why most people serve. The average soldier, marine, sailor and airman will fight to the death to support the Constitution and to protect civilians.

That being said might I ask what branch of the military you served in and where/when did you see combat? Please tell us about your MOS, your rank and the general orders. Once you have replied and I know the branch of service and MOS you claim, I will put forth more questions.

I won't even address your claims about Mr. Prager's draft dodging. Prove it or shut up!

Just read the Amnesty article...
...and for once I basically agree with Prager that their criticism of the film is toothless. They claim it sensationalizes the issue and will turn the unthinking observer against all Iranians.

But seriously, all film is sensational. And I don't believe the unthinking observer is going to attend a film as challenging as this one.

One takeaway from the article I did appreciate was a longer list of films for us to see regarding the plight of Iranian women and minorities:

"I would urge those who really want to see important social issues in Iran critically examined should check out some of the great films made in Iran such as “A Time for Drunken Horses” which deals with poverty among Iran’s Kurdish minority, “The Day I Became a Woman” and “As Simple As That” about the frustrations experienced by women in Iran, and “Santoori” which deals with drug addiction."

I'd also add to that list the amazing Persepolis, an animated film which I very much enjoyed, although as a coming-of-age story about a girl who fled Tehran shortly after the '79 revolution it's probably not as gut-renching as the others, it still sheds light on the Iranian perspective.

Stoning
How does Dennis feel about stoning someone to death when commanded by God Yahweh?

See Leviticus 24:23
& Numbers 15:32-36.
The crime that earned this punishment: Gathering sticks on the sabbath.
People who live in glass houses etc.

Islam v Christians
Christians were intelligent enough to STOP INSANE RITUALS, like stoning, murder, cutting off peoples heads and hands and circumcising women as the Muslims do!

Religions: change or die
It's true: all the religions have to change over time to accommodate the increasing wisdom of humanity.

Or else they'll be sloughed off like dead skin.

Bear that in mind, any fundamentalists reading these words.

from the top and paranoid mystic
Christians never engaged in those insane rituals. That was Jews. If you are counting the acts of the Roman Catholics, they were confused about their identity. They were not Christians. They were romans masquerading as Christians.

Christians should not and never will change, with the times or otherwise. God, Jesus, is, was, and will be the same forever.

Wanted More Courageous Filmakers
I'm going to see this movie. If we want more people to have the courage to make movies that need to be seen...then we need to support their efforts by encouraging others to see them.

Prager thanks 4 your compassion & caring
Islam Muslim leaders etc., have coldly, in apathy, looked the other way. Otherwise, the primitive, sadistic torture 'stoning' of their own Mothers, sisters, wives, daughters would have ceased. They've sure had enough time to become civilized. The 'adulterous' excuse to punish and murder her is pathetic. Animals wouldn't be subjected to such cruelty! Her lover gets off scot'free. Apparently, the way Islam men Lord it over their women and make them live in cumbersome tents etc., they must have a sex hang'up? Don't let men see their Ankle, they might lose control and of course it's the females fault if she is raped because of their lust, Ha! How sick is that? Thank God I'm a female in a free, Christian Nation, where women are equals and valued not perse-cuted, abused women servants. Their countrymen must worship a devil God! Amen

Jeannie Reply # 49
When an article begins with the glib smear: "With the possible exception of university administrations, there is no institute as bereft of courage as Hollywood," and further defines courage as doing what is unpopular especially to one's peers, it is not ad hominum to question the writer's own profile in courage. When he had the opportunity to actually fight the communism that he now wants Hollywood to make make movies about, Prager, graduating in 1970 with a low #45 draft lottery number, ducked into an Ivy League graduate school rather than a uniform. And Hollywood is not "an institute," it's a corporate entertainment business that happens to be one of the most successful and lucrative US exports, so someone must be doing something right. Name another business set up to do what is 'unpopular but courageous' and I'll show you an out of business sign. When it comes to having the courage to do something politically incorrect - especially to one's peers - can anyone tell me of a single instance when Prager did something "conservatively incorrect" especially to his right wing radio talk show host peers? And why do they always end up promoting in lockstep - Gallagher, Medved, Hewitt, Hannity, O'Reilly, etc. - movies that have horrifically graphic violence and brutality as a major component, or the major component of the story. First, all of their listeners had to see "The Passion (read Torture) of the Christ" and now we're being called upon to view "The Stoning of Soyara M." to send Hollywood a message? That's entertainment? Conservative entertainment? Watching some women get rocks thrown at her head? But if you see it, according to Mr. Prager, you can keep complaining about Hollywood, but if you don't you can't. So by all means do.

Will
Go back to the basement and suck your thumb. Mommy will call you when she is ready.

13-Bravo Reply # 62
You are mistaken to say that I said that only active military or vets with or without combat experience should be the only ones allowed an opinion about war. I said no such thing, which is why you couldn't quote what I had written without exposing yourself as fabricating an argument that is supported by absolutely nothing I had written. That's usually referred to as a cheap shot or a smear. Prager is calling upon Hollywood to have the moral courage to make movies about communism (and Islamism zzzzz) when he himself ducked his opportunity to fight that evil himself. (see #70) He has a right to his opinion but he also has an obligation, in my view, to explain to his listeners why he supports so wholeheartedly a war that his own son has chosen not to fight. While Prager's latest war of the month is Iran, he now supports the Green Party when a few months ago he was advocating and even predicting that the US would bomb Iran's nuclear facility. One thing's certain, a Prager won't be in the cockpit, someone else's son or daughter will. I think its moral cowardice for one as militaristic as "War is the Answer! Prager" not to reveal that while he talks tough, he's got no skin in the game. Since you requested my "military MOS" before "I put forth more questions," I'm a Vietnam era vet, an army lieutenant who served in the Signal Corps in the Pentagon under Gen. George Pickett, great great grandson of the confederate general who led the disastrous charge at Gettysburg. And spare me "putting forth anymore questions."

Stoning adulterers is advocated in the B
Hey wait a minute, doesn't Prager's favorite book the Torah, or Old Testament Bible advocate stoning adulterers? Yeah, thought so.

Lets face it, Prager doesn't care about the Iranian people, he would have been happy to see them bombed!

As for Amnesty Intl. They are not "morally confused" they just see this film as an overly simplistic depiction of what actually happen in Iran. People here should see read the review if they can stand any nuance.

http://blog.amnestyusa.org/tag/the-stoning-of-soraya-m/

See the film and stop complaining about
complaining of Hollywood.

Sheldon
Good point about the Torah. Very good point.

But alas, Prager has probably squirmed out of those Old Testament instructions by saying the stoning is figurative and not literal. Or some such nonsense.




Michael
"I'm a Vietnam era vet"

That phrase means nothing, i am a viet nam ERA vet also but those words have never come out of my mouth. i joined the service in 74 after Nam was over. They called it the viet Nam ERA until sometime in 75. I would never use that phrase and somehow try to make it sound like i was in Viet Nam.

Michael @11:22PM
You repeatedly attacked Mr. Prager claiming (a lie you continue to tell in this post) that he had ducked his duty to serve in the Vietnam War. I notice that you still do not back up your lies with any sort of proof. Since Vietnam was not even mentioned in the article there is only one reason for you to bring it up. Obviously you are trying besmirch his name so as to marginalize him and render his opinion irrelevant.

It is amusing that you have the nerve to cry that I was taking a “cheap shot” and was smearing you when your entire post was a pack of lies that were intended to SMEAR Prager with a CHEAP SHOT attack. You sir are a phony and a hypocrite.

Again you act as if Prager and his son have not served in combat then Prager has no right to speak up. Try reading your own posts a little more carefully and you will see the theme stand out. Now offer proof of you accusations or Shut The F Up you lying clown!

If you were in the army then tell us what your MOS was. Not that you were in the Signal Corps as a Lt. What is the Alpha Numeric code the army uses to ID the job; that is your MOS, just as I identify mine as 13Bravo. I don’t say that I was in the field artillery at Ft. Sill. That takes in a lot of stuff; I could have been a forward observer (13Foxtrot), a fire support specialist (13Echo), or a MLRS/HIMARS Crew Member (13Mike) or any of a number of other jobs. But as it happens I was a cannon cocker.

I’ll tell you what, I’ll give you a hand; the MOSs are available online if you look. I found what a Lt’s MOS in the Signal Corps would be in a matter of minutes. As boatguy112 points out, anyone can claim they are Vietnam era vets. Real soldiers can offer their MOS.

bostguy112 Reply#76
The phrase Vietnam Era Veterans is a term used by the Veterans Administration. Tell them it means nothing. I use it to distinguish myself from my fellow soldiers who were "in country," some in combat and most in support. Prager opted out of serving his country and fighting the very communists he now so "courageously" opposes. And he continues to encourage others to send their sons and daughters to fight wars that his own fortunate son has exempted himself from fighting. Not to reveal that fact to his listeners - that his own family has no skin in the wars he's so assiduously promoting - is a form of moral depravity in my book.

13-Bravo Reply #77
Once again, 13-Bravo, the ex-gun bunny in the reserves who now so proudly wears his MOS on his sleeve, is ignoring what he can't refute and fabricating an argument to rail against. I do not think military service gives anyone more of an opinion about war than a civilian, although their opinion may or may not be better informed by experience. My case against Prager is that as a big promoter of war (Iraq; bomb Iran, bomb North Korea, etc.) he has not been forthcoming about his own and his son's lack of service. He should have long ago copped to the fact that he's got no skin in the game and dodged his own chance to serve his country. Check it out: In the 1969 Draft Lottery Prager's 8/2/48 birthdate drew him #45 out of 366 lottery numbers. Everyone with a number under #65 was more than likely to be called up. When Prager graduated from Brooklyn College in 1970 and lost his student deferment, he could have been drafted or joined one of the armed services to fight the communist evil in Vietnam he so abhors, or enroll in graduate school, receive another deferment and stay out of harm's way. He chose graduate school, but did not earn a degree. While he is far from alone in choosing this path, I find fault with his remaining silent about this and the fact that his own military-age son has also chosen not to serve in the wars his father promotes almost daily to a national audience on his right wing radio talk show. This is the argument you should refute by defending Prager's actions, rather than dishonestly putting words into my mouth. Since MOS seems to be very very important to you, I wasn't an 11-Bravo, I was an 8510, a REMF. So what of it?

Michael @3:30PM
MOS 8510 pictorial officer, thank you for your service and for providing something that I can verify. I presume that they have changed MOS designations since the early 70s.

Now to your claims about Prager refusing to serve in Vietnam: You writing that this is what happened does not make it true. Please provide a link or a newspaper article that I can read for myself. How can I possibly refute something you refuse to prove? If you think I am going to take the word of someone who obviously hates Prager and his son you are out of your mind.

I say again: PROVIDE A LINK OR A SPECIFIC DOCUMENT THAT I CAN READ AS PROOF! Your word is worthless without this! And please do not provide a link to some left wing site. I prefer newspapers, magazines or other published materials that are verifiable.

Concerning military service I would caution you to never disrespect someone for not serving in the military. Just because Prager’s son does not serve does not mean he is not a patriot. Most Americans never wear a uniform and still love this country. Your vehemence towards the Prager family is very telling.

13-Bravo Reply #79
I don't hate Mr. Prager, his son, or his family. I simply think he is a deeply dishonest man, a genuine narcissist, and a big phony. I don't know who appointed you judge and jury, or why you keep raising the bar in terms of the proof I am to supposed to supply since all you've been able to come up with are fact-free fabrications of what I said and personal attacks against me. Man up. That Prager has never served his country is easily verifiable; that his birthdate gave him a very low draft lottery number of 45 is also verifiable; that he graduated from Brooklyn College in 1970 and chose graduate school over the certainty of being drafted is also verifiable and a logical conclusion to the proceeding facts. Get off your duff and prove me wrong. That he now rails against the communism he had a golden opportunity to fight back then but didn't, and promotes military actions that will put others, but not his son in harms way, I find cowardly and morally repugnant. If you can defend Prager's actions, please do so. I think that Prager and all his blood-thirsty fellow neo-cons who never served should preface every opinion they utter about war with this disclaimer: "I am advocating military action even though I avoided service myself and in spite of the fact that while those actions may have devastating consequences for others, they will not affect me or any member of my own privileged family in the slightest." His article promoting the brutal "Soraya M." movie and his tough talk about Iran is meant only to further their neo-con agenda, which is to bring about the US bombing of Iran's nuclear facilities and further inflame the region. This stupid, bellicose thinking is why their party suffered a rousing defeat at the ballot box.

Michael @7:03PM
You are the one acting like Prager's judge and jury, making accusations that you expect the rest of us to just believe. You tell me to man up then do not have the guts to provide one single piece of evidence to back up your accusations. You need to man up and put up or shut up. I do not have to prove you wrong you miserable little moron.

People (this includes Prager) are innocent until proven guilty in this country. Maybe after your little commie heroes in DC get done destroying our rights that will no longer hold true; but for now it still stands. In the face of your personal attacks on me and Prager your crying about me making personal attacks is the height of hypocrisy.

I am not required to defend anything anymore than I am required to disprove your allegations. It is up to you to prove he did something wrong. You whining that you should not be required to prove what you claim does not change that; it only shows that you can’t prove anything. I could just as easily claim that Obama secretly conspired to steal the election and anyone with half a brain (which seems to be double the amount you have) would demand that I prove it.

If you have no more proof than your hatred of Prager then just bugger off loser. If the next thing you post does not contain any evidence then I will simply stop reading anything you write and I will not bother to reply. Grow up, man up and back up what you claim or admit to being a liar!

13-Bravo Reply #81
I disagree with your assessment of my character and think I've given the topic and my unworthy opponent, you, more time than this deserved. I supported my contentions over several posts, none of which you've bothered to address. You would prefer to rant, demand proof you've already been given and spew invective rather than address the argument in any meaningful way. Which is regrettable. That's what nonsense is all about.

Sit and Watch
Seeing the film at a Los Angeles venue where many Iranian expats are locals, made the viewing even more immediate than the frames alone could do. The Iranian-American women that choked up and repressed tears in the dark rows made the film a 3D of sorrow for me.

Shohreh Aghdashloo will be nominated for her gifted portrayal of Soraya's aunt.
At the film's end, she casts an eye of menace and foreboding on the town's mayor, while asking for God's forgiveness of that mayor; that was an actress speaking with her eyes.

Never have I witnessed such an inner performace externalized . It was a film performance 'look' for which I can only have the utmost 'regard.' What an actress.


Prager is right.

Become angry and sit and watch.

Michael @10:26PM 7/1/09
Pretty much what I expected; more lies and attacks. How did you support any of your charges? Give me the time of the post. You have not offered one bit of credible proof. If you have what is it? You have repeatedly yapped about Prager’s draft number and claimed he somehow got out of being drafted. That is not proof, it is speculation; learn the difference and you won’t be embarrassed again in the future.

Your idiotic dig at me that I am unworthy of being your opponent merely shows what little intelligence you have. You are a lying moron and no longer worth my time.

One last thing dingbat:

PRAGER IS INNOCENT UNTIL PROVEN GUILTY.
YOU ARE NOT GOD NOR ARE YOU HIS PROSECUTOR.
YOU ARE A SELF IMPORTANT TWIT!

13-Bravo bloviates on and on
Bravo, Bravo! More bluster, more "I know you are but what am I?" name calling, but no substance to speak of. A typical Prager acolyte.

Michael
And you are still do not get to determine who is guilty and who is innocent.

Let me know if you ever have anything intelligent to say. You continue to accuse me of ranting, blustering and now bloviating (calling Mr. O'Reilly; your shtick is being stolen) but you never pony up the proof.

BTW I am less of a Prager acolyte than a believer in innocent until proven guilty. You know that pesky little policy you so conveniently ignore. Nice use of the word acolyte; did your mommy lend you a dictionary?

13-Bravo Last Chance --
-- To make your case and put steel on the target.

I'll state my case with 10 True/False questions, all of which I believe to be True. If you find any to be False, designate and produce your rebuttal. You deemed these points "a pack of lies." If you can show me where I am either lying or mistaken, fire away.

1. Prager's DOB is 8/2/48
2. In the 1969 Draft Lottery Prager's number was #45 out of 366#s drawn.
3. Everyone receiving under #65 was considered to be draft-certain.
4. A 2-S student deferment allowed a college student to defer their draft obligation for up to 4 years or graduation, at which time they would lose their 2-S status, become 1-A and be eligible to be called up within 90 days.
5. Prager graduated college in 1970, lost his 2-S status and was eligible to be called up.
6. Prager had a clear choice to either meet his obligation then, or get a 2nd student deferment for graduate school, postponing his obligation 2 more years.
7. While believing that communism is a great evil that must be fought, Prager opted for graduate school over serving his country and fighting communism in Vietnam. In doing so he avoided the draft for 6 years, until the war ended.
8. Somebody with Prager's birth date/draft lottery #45, who couldn't afford college WAS drafted and more than likely WAS sent to Vietnam.
9. As a supporter of war in Iraq War and the bombing of Iran, a public figure with a national microphone like Prager should reveal to his listeners both his past draft avoidance and admit that no member of his family will be put in harms way if the policies he supports are enacted.
10. Soraya M. article is a continuation of Prager's misguided campaign to bomb Iran.

Michael_CA: Are you kidding?

"I'll state my case with 10 True/False questions, all of which I believe to be True."

Typical preposterous liberal....

How about making your case with something... ANYTHING... that you KNOW TO BE TRUE!


Michael Part 1
Wow you actually put forward factual arguments. I’m impressed. Thank you.

Please allow me to point out that I was born in 1963 and as such have no way of knowing some of the answers. I Googled what I could but was unable to find some answers.

1. Prager's DOB is 8/2/48
True (According to what I found on the internet, for what that is worth)

2. In the 1969 Draft Lottery Prager's number was #45 out of 366#s drawn.
? (I have no way of knowing this. Give me a means to check on this please.)

3. Everyone receiving under #65 was considered to be draft-certain.
True? (I have no way of knowing this either, but will give you the benefit of the doubt).

4. A 2-S student deferment allowed a college student to defer their draft obligation for up to 4 years or graduation, at which time they would lose their 2-S status, become 1-A and be eligible to be called up within 90 days.
True? (The question mark goes to the fact that I don’t know how long one could get a 2-S deferment for. It may well have been only 4 years, but I do not know that.)

5. Prager graduated college in 1970, lost his 2-S status and was eligible to be called up.
False (According to the internet Prager attended Columbia University’s School of International Affairs from 1970 to 1972. This came from the same place that gave me his DOB.)

Michael Part 2
6. Prager had a clear choice to either meet his obligation then, or get a 2nd student deferment for graduate school, postponing his obligation 2 more years.
? (I have no way of knowing this. But since he was a student at Columbia he would still be eligible for the 2-S Deferment.)

7. While believing that communism is a great evil that must be fought, Prager opted for graduate school over serving his country and fighting communism in Vietnam. In doing so he avoided the draft for 6 years, until the war ended.
? (I have no way of knowing what was in his heart. You do not consider people attending graduate school to be students?)

8. Somebody with Prager's birth date/draft lottery #45, who couldn't afford college WAS drafted and more than likely WAS sent to Vietnam.
? (Again I have no way of knowing this.)

9. As a supporter of war in Iraq War and the bombing of Iran, a public figure with a national microphone like Prager should reveal to his listeners both his past draft avoidance and admit that no member of his family will be put in harms way if the policies he supports are enacted.
? (This only holds true if what you allege in 5, 6, 7, and 8 is true.)

10. Soraya M. article is a continuation of Prager's misguided campaign to bomb Iran.
False (I reread the column and found no reference to “bombing Iran.”)

Please note that I do not call you a liar in any of the areas I marked as false of left as a question mark.

Michael Part 3
Concerning the questions marks:

#2 As noted I found no internet listings of Prager’s draft number.

#3 I do not know what would have qualified as "draft-certain."

#4 I found nothing that revealed how long one could get a deferment for.

#6 & 7 Are students who attend graduate school not students? This makes no sense. And on 7 as noted I have no way of knowing what was in his heart anymore than you do.

#8 If what you allege is true then this would seem likely but again there is no way of knowing.

#9 Only true if your case is proven. Sorry but I do not feel you proved your case.


Concerning false responses:

#5 As noted Prager was still a student by my definition.

#10 The subject of bombing Iran is not raised in the column.

Hi Anne,
I don't mind playing. At least Michael is putting forth some items he believes to be facts and allowing me to examine them. Most liberals won't go that far.

Thanks for the back up.

13-Bravo Reply 1 of 2
I appreciate and was surprised by your measured response. I retract my unworthy opponent remark.
1. DOB is True
2. # 45 Draft Lottery number: http://www.landscaper.net/draft.htm#Background%20of%20Sele ctive%20Service
3.Draft certain under lottery # 65
In reality, the lottery numbers of 19 year old men were called at a rate of 30 per month, at least for the early-1970 months of January through May. For example, a man with a #131 was ordered to report for his physical exam 18 Feb 70, subsequently classified 1-A, and then ordered to report for induction 20 May 70 (May's maximum quota allowance called men with the numbers 121 through 150)
***The draftee with the #131 was in the Central Highlands of Vietnam by February of 1971 at his first duty station, following Basic Combat Training (BCT) and Advanced Individual Training (AIT) at Ft. Dix, New Jersey.
The highest number drafted in this group of men was 195.
For men now in the 19-25 pool with college or other deferments, the position their birthdays were drawn will determine their liability in the year their deferments expire. For example, President Nixon's son-in-law, David Eisenhower, apparently will be ripe for drafting when his deferment expires in mid-1970 upon his expected graduation from Amherst College. His birthday, March 31, was drawn 30th. Since men in the 30th position in his draft board probably will already have been drafted by June, David would go to the top of his draft board's list of eligibles.
To be continued...#2

13-Bravo Reply 2 of 3
$. Deferments: II-S student deferment expired upon graduation or poor grade point average and had to be re-applied for graduate school in studies "vital to national interest," medicine, education, etc. "Mr. Cheney obtained his fourth deferment when he started graduate school at the University of Wyoming on Nov. 1, 1965." Deferment rules link:
http://www.vietnam.ttu.edu
5. Prager graduated Brooklyn College in 1970: Lukeford.com, prager bio.
6-7 Prager opted to extend student deferment and go to graduate school at Columbia rather than face certainty of draft. See draft rules and regs.@ http://www.vietnam.ttu.edu/

Bravo=13 Reply 3 0f 3
8. Someone without a stuudent deferment went to Vietnam in Prager's place:
http://www.answers.com/topic/conscription
Although draftees were a small minority (16%) in the U.S. armed forces, they comprised the bulk of infantry riflemen in Vietnam (88% in 1969). They accounted for more than half the army's battle deaths. Because of student and other deferments, the draft and the casualties fell disproportionately upon working-class youths, black and white.
9. Prager should reveal draft history to listeners = true if 5,6,7,8 are supported.
10. Withdrawn, unable to support with verifiable documentation at this time.
Respectfully, Happy 4th! & GB America.

Michael
Ok first off I do not appreciate you putting me in a position to have to do math. What kind of animal are you?

#2 The link you provided states that there were:
*162,746 inductions in 1970
*94,092 inductions in 1971
*49,514 inductions in 1972

Nowhere does it say out of how many. Does the 850,000 mentioned in the prior article go for every year?
If it does then Prager had only a 1 in 5 chance of being drafted in 1970, a 1 in 6 chance in 1971 and a 1 in 17 chance in 1972.

In another section the site states that in 1969, 167 men born on Aug 28 were inducted. Out of how many men with that birth date? 167 is not that many per capita.

The article on the site stated:
"For those with birthdays drawn in the upper portion of the lottery list -- April 24, Dec. 30, Feb. 14, Oct. 18, Sept. 6, Oct. 26, Sept. 7, Nov. 22 and Dec. 6 round out the top 10 -- the uncertainty over their draft status has ended.”
And
“They now know they will be drafted early in the year unless they volunteer first. And those at the bottom know that they will not be drafted and can plan their lives accordingly.
For those in the middle or marginal area of the drawing, uncertainty still exists. But they certainly will know definitely by the end of 1970 whether they will be inducted.
They would have had a maximum of seven years of uncertainty under the old system of drafting first the oldest available men age 19 through 25. This system expires Jan. 1.”

Prager’s DOB would place him in that group in the “middle or marginal area” thus giving him a better than even chance of not being drafted.
In re #4 could you give me some guidance as to where to go once I follow the link you gave? I would prefer not to search all of the archives and/or collections to find the info I need. I do have a life such as it is.

#5 As I noted Prager did indeed graduate but continued onto graduate college.





Michael continued
#6 and 7 I could not find “Rules and Regs” on the site. Please clarify how to locate this. As with #4, just assume that I am a little slow and lead me step by step.

#8 Your link tells me nothing. It is logical that someone would probably have to take Prager’s place if he did as you claim. But I am not convinced as yet that Prager is guilty of anything.

#9 Agreed with reservations.

Now the one point you could make that would not be met with any argument from me is that if Prager did indeed fully support the war in Vietnam then why did he not enlist. While as I have previously noted I do not consider military service as a prerequisite for patriotism, if you are willing to call for sending other’s into combat then you should step up and enlist.

American Women
Why are so many American women converting into Islam?

All replies considered
Now that I've read all that's positive and negative about Prager's review, I'd better see the film.

The Film
I saw this film last week and it was quite good. Honestly, it was not as good as I expected, but it definitely acheived its goal of showing how poorly women are regarded in that part of the world. The stoning scene is especially difficult to watch, so be prepared.

Michael
Well I’ve been waiting for a little over a week for a response and figure that you gave up on me. I’ll make it simple for you. Can you state unequivocally that Prager would have been drafted and sent to Vietnam? Can you actually say that you know for a certainty, with no doubt that Prager did anything illegal to avoid military service and/or combat in Vietnam.

Unless you are an inveterate liar then the answer is, no you cannot make any such statement as fact. Obviously there is no way that you can know just who would have been drafted or would have been lucky enough to not to have been chosen. You have no proof of any wrongdoing by Prager.

Lots of films
Prager didn't research many films before before making generizations about Hollywood.

Among the films Prager says Holly Woof doesn't make:

Reds: An American socialist is there for the Bolshevik revolution and grows dissolusioned when the movement takes a totalitarian turn.

Red Dawn: The Soviets invade Middle America.

United 93: Inside the ill-fated flight on 9/11

The Kingdom: American's investigate terrorist bombings in the Middle East.

24: A TV show, not a movie, but still a Hollywood product the looks at these issues.

An honest look at Hollywood shows that it's agenda is more about making money than promoting political agendas

Michael
Wow it's been four months and Michael never returned to prove his contentions. Why exactly is it that when one challenges liberals to back up what they say about conservatives they punk out?
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