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Thursday, July 02, 2009
S. E. Cupp :: Townhall.com Columnist
Blaming the Burqa
by S. E. Cupp
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French President Nicolas Sarkozy told Parliament Monday that the burqa, the traditional dress worn by some Islamic women, will no longer be tolerated in France. “The burqa is not a religious sign; it is a sign of the subjugation, of the submission of women,” said a straight-faced Sarkozy, whose lovely wife Carla Bruni has modeled high-end designers like Chanel, Versace, and Christian Dior. (Some may argue her best work is done wearing nothing at all. In 2008, a nude photograph of Bruni sold at auction for $91,000.)

Nevertheless, Sarkozy has decided banning the burqa is “a question of freedom and of women’s dignity.” Battling both gender inequality and religious extremism – and it’s not entirely clear which is Sarkozy’s target – is a courageous undertaking, but battling the burqa, as Western Europe has learned many times, is a losing fight, and completely irrelevant to either objective.

If you’re truly an advocate for women, at the very least you’d allow them to wear the clothes they want. Voting, driving and holding positions of authority are okay, but putting a robe on isn’t? And if you’re truly an advocate for religious freedom, you’d never ban a traditional religious practice that doesn’t impinge on anyone else’s rights.

But more importantly, if you’re an advocate for women’s rights or religious freedom, you’d want a stake in the global war on terrorism and Islamic extremism, which threatens both. When Sarkozy uses the burqa as a symbol of oppression – while France has happily criticized from afar the foreign policy of other Western states in the Middle East who want actual freedom from oppression – the irony is laughable.

But it’s also typical of the kinds of misdirected battles Sarkozy tends to pick, and one from which I hope our president doesn’t take any cues.

France has grappled with these issues for years, and banned head scarves and other religious garb from public schools in 2004. Divisions between French nationals and Muslims have grown both in width and in strength, and Sarkozy’s statement is in line with a recent ratcheting up of pro-secular rhetoric that looks to reduce the three major religions to their most common (and inoffensive) denominator.

As my friend Joe Grieboski, head of the Institute on Religion and Public Policy said, "It is almost as if the French Government has made it a mandate to eliminate religion from the public sphere. No faith is safe." And unfortunately, banning the burqa, even if only in sentiment, will please a great many French and Western Europeans.

But what would be characterized in the US as an aggressive foreign policy statement is in France merely a cultural commentary on race and nationalism. Seen through this prism, Sarkozy’s maudlin plea for “women’s dignity” is transparent and obscures the real agenda: promoting a Western, secular, (and, in particular, French) sensibility. It has little to do with women’s rights, and even less to do with religious freedom. And in case there was any doubt, it has absolutely nothing to do with national security.

But for the United States and the rest of the free world, national security is the main, if not only, issue. Getting along well with Muslims is a concern for political, not cultural, reasons. Americans don’t need Muslims to prove (by disrobing) their commitment to Western ideals. Americans just want to live in relative security, knowing Islamic extremism is being dealt with effectively. The United States keeps Islamic extremism separate from Islam, and by targeting the burqa, Sarkozy has lazily conflated the two.

France has the largest population of Muslims in Western Europe. For this reason, Sarkozy has a particular responsibility to get this right. Opting out of actual foreign policy in favor of an arbitrary (and offensive) sartorial debate is another example of inaction disguised as action.

All indications thus far are that President Obama plans to continue America’s commitment to democracy in the Middle East and security at home. But with timidity growing on Iran, it’s unclear just how forceful he intends to be. We should all hope he doesn’t revert to a Sarkozian model: all talk, no action.

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About The Author
S.E. Cupp is author or "Why You're Wrong About the Right," with Brett Joshpe. S.E. Cupp is a political commentator and lives in New York City.
 
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Difficult issue
I think, having spoken to a few Muslim women who wear the head scarf for religious and cultural reasons, that Sarkozy may be right. The burqa is a minority garment among Muslim cultures. Most women in Muslim cultures wear the head scarf, some also wear the veil, but the burqa takes religiously and culturally based modesty to an absurd extreme that those I have talked to say is oppression. Of course, cultures that favor the burqa would say these women have been corrupted by Western influence, but most of the women I know say they know their cultural history and that the burqa is a relatively new occurence and used only by a small enclave of Muslims.

I think it would be a violation of the freedom of expression and religion to take away the head scarf, but on the other hand, I do think women ought to show their faces for identification purposes if they plan to drive a car and the burqa is just over the top restriction of women's rights.

I think it is a difficult issue that requires a finer touch that Sarkozy apparently has. I doubt Mr. Obama is going to handle it any better. He'll likely respond by insisting that the burqa is perfectly acceptable and that American non-Muslims should consider wearing them occasionally to make our Muslim countrymen feel comfortable. We should at least feel guilty for not wearing them, because we all know that the culture of any other country in the world is superior to the United States' culture, so we should feel guilty for not changing.

Open Society
In open societies, it is not acceptable to go round in public masked, hiding totally your identity. People's faces give us a clue to their state of mind. In any interaction with a hostile masked person, you are in a defenceless position because you cannot read intent. Afterwards, you would not be able to give a description of the person who harmed you.

An open face is like a name tag on an employee. It serves to encourage responsible behavior.

The Burqa
It is all very well to say that you shouldn't ban something which doesn't impinge on the rights of others BUT.

Twice recently in the UK a MAN has escaped arrest by wearing a Burqa as a disguise and hiding behind the convention that you shouldn't request a woman to expose her face. One was a suspected terrorist the othe had murdered a female Police Officer and mother of 4 children.

I have read that in Florida there was a problem over photo ID on a driving licence because the woman insisted on keeping her burqa on. I was recently driving in Cleveland OH, a car pulled up next to me at some lights. Glancing in I saw a "person" wearing clothing which would have left only their eyes exposed and they were wearing very dark black sunglasses.

The wearing of this garment is a threat to all of us in terms of Law and Order, Security and an integrated society. As a UK citizen I find myself, to my surprise, in total agreement with President Sarkozy and hope and pray that he sticks to his guns.

By the way the majority opinion in Islam appears to be that beyond dressing modestly there is NO requirement in the Koran to wear this garment.

Outrageous, but Obama-esque
So you're making people more FREE by BANNING something?
This is typical reactionary "liberal" social engineering gone amok.
I can honestly see Obama saying something like this.
And no, I'm sorry, this is NOT a difficult issue.
BANNING things that you don't like is NOT freedom.

Ooops
The burqa is not a religious symbol. So your premise is dead wrong. If you want to defend the tradition, do so. But you cannot make it a Koranical issue, cause it ain't.

On the other hand, marijuana is a Rasta sacrament. Want to take a shot at that?

Ms Cupp
You state that the wearing of the burqa is both a religious statement and a matter of choice by the woman.

It is neither!

If you had done any traveling at all you would be aware that the burqa is not worn by the vast majority of Muslim women; in those countries where women have a choice they will wear western garb and possibly/possibly not, a head scarf.

This, and many other aspects of Islam, have nothing to do with religion or the woman's choice - it has to do with perverse sense of honor espoused by the male family members. She can wear the burqa or get beaten or killed - simple as that!

It should be banned!
I do not care what Sarkozy's motive is.No woman should be wearing a burqa.It is dehumanizing and is meant to be just that.

It is a symbol of Islamofascism.The wearing of it should be banned in ALL free nations.

Cupp gets a D
D-Cupp.

Burqa-less
Cupp got it entirely bassackwards. Given the history of radical Islam, you can't have people wandering around your country dressed as 19th Century Highwaymen. Also, these nutcases have a bad habit of wearing vests that go boom taking out anybody within 50 feet of the "religiously inspired" event. Sarkozy did the right thing, and he should add, "if you don't like it, get the hell out of my country."

a random thought about the burqa
Clerics or laymen who require the garment seem to support the position that they have no self control regarding women. A blindfold for these individuals would suffice.

Masks in Public?
It is illegal in most states to enter a public building wearing a mask.

It is required that my photo ID and my face match before I board an airplane. Many other transactions require a photo ID.

Head scarves? OK. Burqa Not OK.

The Burqa
What I'd like to know is if the women who choose to continue to follow Islamic law and dress like "covered slaves", why are they living in a non-Islamic country? Why did they even move to a foreign country if they were satisfied being considered as just a little higher on the social scale than common animals in their homeland?

It's just as asinine as some U.S. Banks and financial institutions that have publicized that they will participate in "Sharia Compliant financing", failing to understand that under Sharia Compliant Financing" part of the profits are donated to terrorist organizations.

concealed weapons
Several posters have alluded to the real reasons that wearing burqas should be banned in open societies: It's impossible to identify the wearer or even the wearer's gender, and the garment can effectively hide weapons or explosives.


France is finally waking up
I hope it isn't too late.

I think it is time to put parts of the world on notice that if you believe in treating women like 2nd class citizens and that people should be subjugated to sharia law, then you probably aren't going to like living in Europe or North America.

Knowing this ahead of time, you'd do well to either adapt, not come, or keep your mouth shut. We'd show as much respect if we were visiting Saudi Arabia.

The Burqa is Oppressive
Sarkozy is correct, the burqa is dehumanizing, oppressive and turns a woman from a human being into a shadowy, inferior creature. And it's sole purpose is to subjugate and demean women. It's about time a Western leader speaks out against this thuggish, misogynistic infliction. While most Western politicians are falling all over themselves to call Islam a "religion of peace", thankfully one finally has the courage to point out one of Islam's many faults and do something about it. Hopefully Sarkozy will take up the cause of eradicating honor killings and clitoral circumcision next.

Finally, imagine that, the French president promting a French sensibility. If only Obama would promote and American one. Viva la France!

It Is Our Custom to Show Your Face
Respectfully Ms.Cupp you are off the mark on this one, and Sarko has it just right. Who do you think better understands the tension between Islamism and religous freedom, you or President Sarkozy? For an excellent analysis please read:

http://www.nydailynews.com/opinions/2009/07/01/2009-07-01_l earn_from_france__and_consider_banning_the_burka.html?page= 0

Confusing column! Excellent posts

(above) about the burqa... It's not a matter of "religious freedom" as much as it's an issue of subjugation.

Remember, many muslim women aren't allowed to leave their homes without the permission of their husbands.


"But for the United States ... national security is the main, if not only, issue."

Actually, I haven't seen a lot of that [national security] here in the US since Jan. 20th.


S.E.Cupp
I have no idea who this stupid twit is, but she is way, way, way off base. If the burqa were worn as a religious artifact throughout the Islamic world, that would be one thing.

Nobody says "boo!" about the male requirement to wear the yarmulke in temple or as was once the case, a hat or scarf for women during Catholic Mass, but the burqa is worn in the most primitive Islamic societies, not as a symbol, but as an actual device of oppression. There is no difference whatsoever between the burqa and leg irons locked worn by slaves - they inhibit movement, prevent escape, and identify one human as the personal property of another.

France has a unique situation since its investment in empire internalzied some seriously backwards Islamic countries and it is now overrun with beligerent and hostile populations of North African immigrants rife with Islamic extremists. France either stomps down on this crap or risks having its entire culture wiped out by a hostile and cancerous subculture.


Anne in PA
Actually, I haven't seen a lot of that [national security] here in the US since Jan. 20th.

Or anywhere else...
Saturday will be interesting!

Correct Direction wrong order of events

I would think banning 'Honor Killings' and mutilation of female genitalia on little girls, would be in order first.

Sarkosy
It is about time someone has the balls to say what is wrong about covering up your face and looking like something from the grave. Go Sarkosy thank you for being a true man.

Regarding my 9:13 AM post

I forgot to add something.

Pouring acid on a female babies face to ensure she won't be to 'Pretty', should come before banning a certain type of clothing - don't you think?

SIGNS OF THE NEXT 9/11?
On April 16th Barack Obama released a selection of the redacted Torture Memos depicting the waterboarding of three Al Qaida terrorists. This triggered a fierce debate about national security culminating in the duel between Obama and D*ck Cheney. Unnoticed by everyone was that April 16th was an ominous day, a day of shock and horror for America, the anniversary of one of the worst mass murder events in US history: the Virginia Tech Massacre; a possible sign of coming disaster, a sign of the next 9/11.

Click my name and read my piece: The Opening of Pandora's Box: Nancy Pelosi, Torturegate and Signs of the Next 9/11.

What Next? Dress Codes?
I know; how about we just let everybody dress how they want. I don't care if they want to conceal weapons, disguise themselves or just store turkey sandwiches. How we dress is a personal choice.

If we are going to start regulating how people dress then I want to call for banning people from wearing their pants half way down their rear ends. Then I want to ban people from piercing their faces and wearing jewelry in the holes. You don't even want to get me started on ugly shorts.

Do you see the problem? Who gets to decide what is appropriate? I know I don’t want someone else telling me how to dress.

Regarding the concerns about someone wearing a burqa while driving, why not just require the person to uncover their face if and when they are pulled over by the police. As long as the person can see well enough to drive safely, then let them dress as they want as long as they do wear something.

the Burga is about control
The burga is a method of control by the men over the women. Religion is just an excuse. The women in Yemen are not allowed to leave their homes, even to go into their own courtyard, without being totally covered in heavy black robes and without the presence of at least one man in attendance. Once inside their homes, they may remove the heavy robes and wear what they choose, but never if there is any male other than their own husband, present. In 100+ degree heat, they still have to wear the robes and be completely covered. This is not religion, this is control. I know this information first hand.

I believe when a person moves from their own homeland, into a new country, they should adapt and respect the new rules, customs, and laws of the new country. They left their countries for a reason, it’s time to assimilate and become part of their new surroundings. They can practice their religion in the privacy of their homes and places of worship, like the rest of us. I absolutely agree with Tommy of CA the belligerent and hostile North African immigrants and Islamic extremists populations has to be stomped out. They are taking over in large neighborhoods in England and other countries, some are trying it in NYC, imposing their rules upon their neighbors and customers even in the market places. I would like to see the burgas outlawed in the US, also. Let’s get rid of the extremists and the control over women.

I don’t believe it was necessary to bring Mrs. Sarkozy’s professional modeling and lack of clothing into this article. It added nothing to the subject of women wearing burgas.

13-Bravo_IN: "Who gets to decide..."

I believe the issue isn't necessarily the "dress" as much as it is (or should be) the concealed face!

Remember a few years ago in Fla., when a muslim women sued the state of Fla. because the state refused to give her a drivers license unless she had her picture taken without the burqa covering her face?


Lame
With the muslim population demanding sharia law, speaking out only about the burka is stupid.

Demand that everyone in France follow French law.

Demand that no one in France wear clothing that covers their face and that anyone stopped by police show that they are not carrying bombs.

Demand that thugs who do not get there way, petition peacefully not destroy property.


Tell people, who feel that is their right to live under sharia law, riot at will and cover their women head to toe, to leave France.

Obama, are you listening.

Burqua For The Obese.
Free French women should take the lead in the protest against the burqua by going topless. The burqua should be allowed only if the woman is obese. Sarkozy should enter the battle by declaring a week of nudity for government employees. They will be allowed to show up for work naked. It is Summer in France and the ladies will not be cold.

Gerogann
It is so much fun watching the virulent anti-Semitism that is overtaking the liberal masses! Their hatred for Jews and for Israel is becoming as open and direct as that of the Shiite clergy.

Let us see what happens when America's Jews wake up to the fact that the Democrat Party is one with Hezbollah and Hamas in wanting Israel destroyed and Jews driven from power everywhere else. Let's see how long the liberal party can survive without Jewish financial backing.

Wouldn't you enjoy watching the pathetic spectacle of union employees, gays, feminists, inner city blacks, and hormonal college students try to cobble together a national party and win elections? Priceless.

Dont'be an American Hypocrit
Why do we interfere in a Christian family's decision to NOT have a cancer-stricken child given chemotherapy treament that had little chanced of curing the child? Government resources were used to track down that child and prosecute the family because of decisions based upon their faith.
Now we support the Saudi practice of denigration of women. These garments are not religious. They are cultural. No different than a grass skirt or a kilt. A country has a right to ban nudity (which may be acceptable in the Amazon) because of the society's sensibilities.
Dress codes exist in our American culture too.
"No shoes. No shirt. No service." Is there any real reason for this? Restaurants ARE allowed to require a jacket to be seated.
I say that WE in America should also ban the burqa. Women are not to be put in sacks and left to rot. The Arabic culture which abuses women hides behind "freedom of religion" and people buy it? Stop this!!Burqas hide blackened eyes.
We don't allow other religions to use this flimsy excuse for practices which violate the letter or the spirit of our laws.

Don't allow this to continue. Please speak out.
Wake up America. Merci to M. Sarkozy. The French are awake. The french are intellectually honest AND standing firmly on the side of womens'rights. America has abandonned women.

Dont'be an American Hypocrit
Why do we interfere in a Christian family's decision to NOT have a cancer-stricken child given chemotherapy treament that had little chanced of curing the child? Government resources were used to track down that child and prosecute the family because of decisions based upon their faith.
Now we support the Saudi practice of denigration of women. These garments are not religious. They are cultural. No different than a grass skirt or a kilt. A country has a right to ban nudity (which may be acceptable in the Amazon) because of the society's sensibilities.
Dress codes exist in our American culture too.
"No shoes. No shirt. No service." Is there any real reason for this? Restaurants ARE allowed to require a jacket to be seated.
I say that WE in America should also ban the burqa. Women are not to be put in sacks and left to rot. The Arabic culture which abuses women hides behind "freedom of religion" and people buy it? Stop this!!Burqas hide blackened eyes.
We don't allow other religions to use this flimsy excuse for practices which violate the letter or the spirit of our laws.

Don't allow this to continue. Please speak out.
Wake up America. Merci to M. Sarkozy. The French are awake. The french are intellectually honest AND standing firmly on the side of womens'rights. America has abandonned women.

13Bravo
"Do you see the problem? Who gets to decide what is appropriate? I know I don’t want someone else telling me how to dress."

It is the custom in certain Oceanic cultures to go around naked wearing only a pënis sheath. Not allowed up here. What's the difference? You conform to the customs of where you live or you go back home. We don't allow men to march around driving African slaves ahead of them in chains, and we're not going to let fanatic Islamists walk around dragging their enslaved women behind them hidden in burqas, either.

Who gets to decide? WE AS A CULTURE DO, and by God, we're not going to permit the cultural enslavement of women in the Western world just because a bunch of backwards goatf*ckers think it's the bloody will of Allah.


some sympathy
You have to have some sympathy for Cupp. She seems to be under the illusion that conservativism has something to do with a respect for freedom. The commentators above have pretty aptly put her in her place about that. The idea that people should be able to dress how they choose does not have any place in American conservativism.

Burqas and KKK robes
Can an employer require that an employee NOT wear a KKK robe to the office? Can a student wear one to school?
I see no difference between a KKK robe and a burqa.

Here Come the Racists

Georgann arrived first - others will follow,

Lon
Lon says: "The idea that people should be able to dress how they choose does not have any place in American conservativism."

OK, Lon. You really zinged all of us conservatives with your insightful commentary but, thanks to Georgann, we now know exactly how all you leftists feel about Jews.

to Georgann
"I think Sarkozy is acting as a Jew and not a Frenchman..."
You are very wrong. He is exactly French. "Liberté. Egalité. Fraternité." is the motto of France. The burqa offends all three of these. The French understand this and stand firm for the liberty and equality of women. They also stand for the brotherhood of all french citizens. No non-assimilating subcultures allowed.

I dont believe it
What Next? Dress Codes?
I know; how about we just let everybody dress how they want. I don't care if they want to conceal weapons, disguise themselves or just store turkey sandwiches. How we dress is a personal choice.

If we are going to start regulating how people dress then I want to call for banning people from wearing their pants half way down their rear ends. Then I want to ban people from piercing their faces and wearing jewelry in the holes. You don't even want to get me started on ugly shorts.

Do you see the problem? Who gets to decide what is appropriate? I know I don’t want someone else telling me how to dress.

Regarding the concerns about someone wearing a burqa while driving, why not just require the person to uncover their face if and when they are pulled over by the police. As long as the person can see well enough to drive safely, then let them dress as they want as long as they do wear something.

==================================================

I dont like the idea behind having to wear them. It personally offends all civilized people. But this idiot 13-bravo is right, where will it end. Some Conservatives want Government to run our lives and tell us what we can and cant wear. Your Conservative KKK members although low lives and traitors have the right to wear their hoods if they want. the fight should be against Radical Islam, not only Burqas. Stop GOP Nazi intrusion into our private lives, freedom is not just a word, but a right.

Mario

Lon
Those women who wear the burqa have NO choice in the matter.

Think ye just because some Muslim women wear Western dress they aren't still ruled with an iron fist? (But then, liberals neither understand nor accept the concept of 'tradeoff')

Recall the lady beheaded by her husband earlier this year in an 'honor killing' because she wanted a divorce. I don't believe she was veiled!

Burqas on MJ's Kids
I can't resist pointing out that Michael Jackson had something that looked very much like a burqa on his children when they were smaller, vd pictures shown on TV this week. Did anyone object then, or did they think it was just another endearing sign of his special-ness?

The Big Picture
"That moment has now arrived. And administrative despotism turns out to be very popular: Why, we need more standardized rules, from coast to coast—and on to the next coast. After all, if Europe can harmonize every trivial imposition on the citizen, why can’t the world?"

Some fine irony from Mark Steyn deep inside this

http://www.steynonline.com/content/view/2125/

book review, entitled "The State Despotic."

Short version...you want a rule or regulation for everything? Go to Europe.




Face Veils
There was an issue in the news a year or so ago when Arabic teachers of English children in English schools were wearing veils that covered their faces. Children could not clearly hear what was being said and were unable to read the signals they were used to seeing communicated by a teacher's facial expressions, also some of the younger children were frightened, so parents objected to the face veils. I don't know how that was resolved in the end, but I have a technicolor picture in my head of some small-town American Southerners being tolerant of their first-grade teacher veiling her face. I would like to see them defending her "freedom of expression". I would buy a ticket to see that.

lilly
Do you actually think this way, or are you simply wired to get into scraps no matter what the topic.

Somehow, I don't think Michael Jackson's dressing his children in that matter was because he had a castration terror of unbridled female sexuality and had therefore constructed a culture around subjugating women and making sure their vaginas were kept under wraps, tightly controlled, and more to the point away from some other guy who might have a bigger schlong and more staying power.

You are so addicted to picking fights you don't even care how utterly stupid you often sound.

Instrusion on both sides
"Stop GOP Nazi intrusion into our private lives, freedom is not just a word, but a right."

There is what you call "Nazi intrusion" from both sides of the aisle on behalf of supporters. NAACP and ACLU fight for the instrusion upon the side of the left. A student may not read his favorite Bible story to his public school class. Thousands of taxpayer dollars wasted to deny a little boy freedom of speech at school. Where is the tolerance of the left for the Stars and Bars? Is that allowed in a school? It's even banned on any merchandise for sale at privately run events, NASCAR.
Stop being hypocrital. See that this is happening on both sides.
Where is the ACLU for the rights of women? What has happended to N.O.W. Sad. Sad. Sad. Sellouts to the political left who no longer stands upon principle.


Love Janelle's Remark
Loved this: "Clerics or laymen who require the garment seem to support the position that they have no self control regarding women. A blindfold for these individuals would suffice."

Banning ANY garment for adults, just living their lives -- UNLIKE schoolchildren in state-run schools -- is a dangerous slippery slope. Education, ostracism and other social pressures will do much better.

To Lon
"The idea that people should be able to dress any way they want doesn't have a place in American Conservatism."

So, Conservatism seems kind of confused. Conservatives rant all the time on townhall about infringements on their INDIVIDUAL liberty: they resent everything from helmet laws to speed limits to having to get a Rx from the MD in order to get medicine. Surely this attitude would extend to their choice of clothing.

But: caps worn backwards started as a gang sign. Pants hanging down started as a statement of empathy with one's "brothers" in jail where no belts were allowed. I don't know where rings in the nose started but I doubt it was at The Heritage Foundation. Conservatives deplore this style of dress---they often say so.

So: how can you have personal of freedom of personal taste in attire then object to personal taste you don't happen personally to like? It's a puzzlement.

Meanwhile, if we take your statement to heart, we could be telling all observant Jewish males over age 13 that they can't wear a yarmulka. Or all Christian women that they can't wear a crucifix on a chain around the neck. Because all those decisions would be made not by the individual, but by whoever was in charge of Conservative standards. Is that your intent?


Sarkozy
Can we do a presidential exchange with France? They can have Obama and we get Sarkozy. Oohrah. Right man at the right time. I realize Sarkozy's not US native born but then neither is B. Hussein.
I hope the froggies appreciate what they've got.
I'm having French Fries on the Fourth.

Security
There is a sign on the window of my bank that states, "For security reasons, please remove all sunglasses and hats when entering this facility."

Wonder what they would think of a burka?

Burqua
Islam is not a religion it is a cult. The prophet mohammed if alive today in America would be imprisoned for being a pedophile. It is time that Americans wake up. I could care less about the freedoms for anyone who is a member of this cult. If you are not a believer they would like to enslave you or kill you. If you see the way they treat women in general and you think that is ok I trully feel sorry for you. If a girl is raped under sharia law they bury up to her pelvis and stone her to death, but that is just freedom of religion right?

Hey Gungy.........
I echoe your sentiments...and courage from the French?......Miracles DO happen...

I think I'll have some fries on the 4th also...toast to ya!

Georgann
I am not a Jew and you are not nearly a genius. You are arguing religious motives against a cultural garment. It is not a religious garment but is culturally accepted in very small areas when the numbers of Muslims world-wide are considered.

If you can't base your argument on truth and facts, you do no better than a person who would bet on a horse in a car race.

Thanks, gungy
The "bad guys" wear masks to hide identity... the problem here is more than freedom to dress as you choose, it's a matter of public safety. It's no more safe to have this style of complete concealment as is yelling "fire" in a crowd. They can wear whatever they like at home.

Sarkozy: 50 Cupp: 0
I can only join the already eloquent posts here for why Sarkozy is right to ban the Burkha.

To recap: No woman actually wears a Burkha voluntarily, no matter what they might tell you. It is an oppressive tool of an oppressive culture. Further, it represents a security risk. Third, it is a physical manifestation of a refusal to integrate into Western Society. If that is how you feel, you have no business being in a Western country. Period.

I note by the photo that Ms. Cupp is quite young. I suggest she actually do some travelling to the foriegn countries she wishes to opine about first. You obviously don't know what the hell your talking about. Hint: Hanging out for a week on the Leftbank of Paris doesn't count.

lilly
lilly says: "...I have a technicolor picture in my head of some small-town American Southerners being tolerant of their first-grade teacher veiling her face."

Well, of course it's technicolor. You get your incisive character profiles from movies produced by big city leftists.

Now, if there were only some movies about Democrat gangster politicians maybe you'd learn something.

Another idea for gungy
How about we actually merge the US to Canada (no inclusion for Mexico), and have Harper as PM of a greater Canada of 60 Provinces?

Eric
I hear you, man. Islam is a cult where only an adult male has any rights.

I have collected American Indian relics all of my adult life. That means that I studied their history. They were and are more sophisticated and civilized than Muslims today. But, I don't reckon ole Smilin' Barry will push for human rights any time soon.

minky
If lilly's beat down p-whipped husband would put her in a burqa, shut her up, keep her out of sight and off the roads, throw away her computer, and force the miserable shrew to spend all day cleaning and cooking for him and his buddies from the cafe (see Chapters 1-3 of "Palace Walk" by Naguib Mahfouz for details), I would completely revamp my opinion of the burqa and beomce its greatest American champion.

lilly
I hear peyote causes technicolor dreams. You need to cut back on your drug intake and quit your worrying about the South. Some of you Yankees can't survive without insisting that Southerners are the Devils next of kin.

I read your rantings on civil rights and the South yesterday. 'Though I have much to say about your ignorance, I will make one point to your version of "history". Well after the South was desegregated national TV news followed the ugly scenes of desegregation in Boston, Ma. and Pontiac, Mich. You seem to have that goose and gander problem with your double standards. You are supposed to learn from history, not live in it. It just may be that your poor air quality and corrupt politicians have distorted your thinking.

I see once again
lilly shows her true colors by thinking stereotype is not only smart, but fact.

le 14 juillet
For those of you who support this practice, I humbly suggest saying a toast to the French on Bastille Day, July 14th.
Please learn from the mistakes of America's first great ally. In France, the failures of the nanny state have caused the pendulum to swing back to sanity. Mitterand was France's first socialist president, elected in the 70s. Obama is America's.
Stop him now or we will be reduced to the impotence of bankruptcy. Laziness and the love of comfort over the choice to support our great founding principles is a terrible thing.
Be awake. or it's possible the world will be calling us all "Big Mac-eating surrender monkeys". ;)

VIVA SARKOZY

.....Finally a world leader with the gonads to defend Western Culture ...

.....Burqas are a symbol of Eastern suppression of women ...I say get those burqas off ...let's see some Muslim T & A ...why shold thse Muslim men keep it all to themselves .....COLOSSUS

I think
people are missing the broader point of the column.

Read it again.

BTW..I have traveled abroad and some women do don the burqha by choice, most do not, or don't know any better, but some do. Not everything fits in neat little boxes folks.

What Cupp is pointing out is that France is a paper tiger, and I have to agree with her.

Georgann

"b-b-but...Sarkozy is a JEW!
His only function is to keep France at war with Islam for the mother country - Israel!

What? - you guys think he was installed to serve the FRENCH????

silly gooses...

was Bush installed to serve America?

same bunch.... different country.

Indict a neocon today.. and save America."




I see you are off your meds again.

One last comment...
Attacking a symbol does nothing about the symbolism behind it.

Have a great day!

lilly
--"I have a technicolor picture in my head of some small-town American Southerners being tolerant of their first-grade teacher veiling her face."--

Why, lilly!! I have missed your stereotypical rantings!! Almost as much as I have missed your racist epithets to Dr. Sowell. What was it that you called him? Oh yes...."Uncle Tom."

By the way, that teacher in Great Britain was reprimanded by the Muslim Council of Britain. Seems they do not think she should cover herself in front of children, either:

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/tm_headline=exclusive--teacher -axed-for-keeping-her-veil-on&method=full&objectid=17923551 &siteid=115875-name_page.html

Still on Technicolor, huh? Bless your heart....

security
I don't know how you can justify thinking that a full body black covering that includes the face is not a security threat. If I decided to make up a religion that said I had to wear a black suit with a ski mask would everyone allow me to walk around an american city like that?
One day a terrorist attack will be carried out by extremists in these burqas and it will be to late. Hundreds may die just so no one is offended. I believe Islam is violent dark religion that will not rest until it has subjigated the whole world. Eventually it may come to a real holy war christians against muslims just remember it IS the muslims who refuse to live peacefully with any other religions. Islam can hide behind the excuse that their religion is being hijacked by a few extremists but eventually that will sound as empty as it is.

Lilly
Hmm....you talk about the need for southerners to be tolerant of a teacher wearing a burka.

You seem to miss the point that the burka is probably on that woman's face because of the intolerance on the part of muslim men, who are against women having any rights, period.

I would hope that men in the south, indeed throughout America, would be intolerant of the harsh and tyrannical, often brutal, treatment of their women.

But I guess you champion the enslavement, torture, beating, and murder of Islamic women on the part of their husbands, sons and fathers, as well as downright strangers.

Good job, Lilly.

Cupp really isn't serious. She can't be.
Cupp equates voting rights with the freedom to wear what you want? How idiotic! Has Cupp been living under a rock?

Hey Cupp, wake up and smell the roses, honey. Wearing a burqa ain't about "freedom to wear what you want". Okay? It's about the demeaning of women. There are places in the world where NOT wearing a burqa in public can get you severe beatings. It is forced on these women. They don't have a choice.

It is amazing how uninformed supposedly smart people are...


Tommy
I'm not in favor of a government ban of the burqa for the same reason I'm not in favor of the government banning saggy pants or nose rings, etc., but I do recognize the need to draw the line in some instances for security or purposes of identity. The driver license issue comes to mind.

I do know this. If there was a similar type garment used by a Christian sect to subjugate women, we would be seeing an entirely different reaction from a lot of the leftists.

Lolo1
"Attacking a symbol does nothing about the symbolism behind it."

Yet people goes apeshït at the sight of a Confederate flag, a burning cross, a swastika, an Arbeit Macht Frei gate, a cartoon depicting Mohammed, and yes, the horrible soul-crushing burqa.

I refer you to the works of Carl Jung and Joseph Campbell for a study of symbols in human mythology and the collective subconscious, and respectfully suggest you rethink what is clearly a vacuous and inane statement on your part, penned no doubt on your way out the door and intended to be no more than a glib ta-ta.

lilly the senile commie
as typical lilly shows up to attack any view posted by conservs.

But in regards to the dead michael jackson, they were many comments concerning what the freak was doing to his kids and how his bizarre behavior would have detrimental effects on them later in life.

But I noticed how silent you were when your love object, the corrupt socialist from chcago posing as president, designated june as I love the faggots month.

Exactly what makes giving special designation to 5% of the population when he attacks the beliefs of larger majorities in this country.

But then again it probably fits in with your agenda of anything that diminishes america is fine with you.

But we already know, your real belief is flap ears comes from the simple idea that he hates america as much as you do.

One day there will be reason to celebrate through chicago and america, you will die and we will be free of listening to another hater of this country.


minky
I would be prefectly satisfied with your reasoning for a ban of the burqa - that's very reasonable.

It will have the same effect of forbidding what is a practice of utter barbarity that has no place in a Western democratic society. We maintain the glories of Eurocentric Enlightenment politicaL philosophy only by remaining European and enlightened, and not by embracing the barbarism of socially primitive societies out of a surfeit of self-negating multiculturalism.

When the body is attacked by an invading pathogen, the body isolates and eliminates it. The body politic remains healthy only insofar as it emulates its counterpart in nature.

Ms. Cupp misses on France here.

One cannot discuss education in France without a discussion of the reforms of Jules Ferry, republican schooling and the institutionalization of 'laique' for the schools.

France, in its republican model of government is the quintessential anti-clerical government.

The separation between church and state in France is much greater than in the U.S. with our federal constitutional scheme.

You would never have in France, a cleric, begin a session of the legislature or the swear in of a political officer.

Sarkozy is in that tradition and the push to remove the burka is a valid one in France. It is also a valid one in regard to security. One cannot protect public places from radical bombers, when an individual is shrouded and insulated from immediate review by her/his disguise clothing.

We should support Sarkozy in this ... as we demand in our DMV's and U.S. Passport Office, that chadors and burka's be removed for identification photographs.

France is a complex nation state.

Anne @9:40PM
Obviously no one should be issued a drivers license (or any sort of legal picture ID) with their face covered. That is why I said that they should be required to remove their face covering when pulled over. If you wish to drive in this country you must submit to having your photo taken; otherwise get used to taking a cab, the bus, riding a bike or just plain walking. I just do not want to surrender even more freedoms to the government. They have stolen enough of our rights already.

I’m curious, does anyone know the outcome of that lawsuit? I did a Google search and found out the woman’s name was Sultanna Freeman but I could not find out what the final verdict was.

13-Bravo
It is my understanding that the woman referred to here was denied getting a driver's license unless she was willing to be photographed with her face uncovered. I don't know if she subsequently agreed to that and got a license or not.

Tommy @9:54AM
You are equating women wanting to wear a veil with guys walking around with their members hanging out? Interesting.

The customs of where we live are freedom from the government ordering us around. We already allowed the government to order us to wear seatbelts and motorcycle helmets. Every time we give Big Brother control over some minor part of our lives they begin looking for more to steal; every liberty lost serves only to whet government’s appetite for more. As I stated to Anne I am merely opposing surrendering more freedoms to the government.

Scentology is also not accepted
"Registered as a religion in the United States, with celebrity members such as actors Tom Cruise and John Travolta, Scientology enjoys no such legal protection in France, where it has faced repeated accusations of being a money-making cult."
The Americans will accept any idiocy that masquerades and calls itself a religion. The french are not so stupid. After all, they invented existentialism. You define yourself by your actions. What you name yourself is irrelevant.
We should all apply this test to Obama Gump. Obama is as Obama does. Ignore the flowery rhetoric and bull-oney.

13-Bravo: I'm not sure either...

I just recall that it went to court, and being somewhat surprised (pleasantly so) that the court upheld the law... no full face photo, no drivers license!


I agree, "do not want to surrender even more freedoms to the government. They have stolen enough of our rights already."

But, if that's what Sarkozy wants for France, then it's his call.


13-Bravo
Sultana Freeman lost the appeal in Sept 2005:

http://www.westernresistance.com/blog/archives/000102.html

It is a state law in Florida that you must have a full face picture for your driver's license.

With Friends Like This...
Mario, you micro-phallic, mental midget please do not ever agree with me again. It makes me wonder if I got things wrong when morons take the same position I do. Geez now I need to take another bath; that's two today. Can someone lend me some penicillin?

I am taking a proper stand against allowing the government to run our lives. As a socialist you hardly believe in less government in our lives. You have no clue what freedom means given that you have repeatedly supported the Obama Administration’s takeover of the auto industry, the banks, and now healthcare. Be gone foul socialist!

Anne @12:35PM
I apologize; I thought that the discussion had evolved to the possibility of the same policies coming to America.

I'm with you, if Sarkozy and the French are willing to let other members of their society lose their rights then so be it. It should come as no surprise to them when the government begins taking their rights as well.

13-Bravo
I will not try to explain myself to you further as you are deliberately obtuse as regards my actual argument except to point out that you wrote "women WANTING (emphasis mine) to wear a veil."

I think your verb choice is the basis for your inability to understand what enlightened Westerners hate about this garment and why even the most liberty loving conservative would want to see it banned.

It is a primary symbol of a defiant and cancerous political philosophy that left unchecked inside a Western democracy can eat away at it like a brain tumor. If you have any working knowledge of the cultural war to the death that is presently raging in both England and France at the hands of this metastasizing evil, you would not be so dismissive of my emnity for this repugnant thing and all that it represents.

The burqa is a garment, but it is also a gateway symbol of human slavery, honor killings, stonings, beheadings, and all the barbaric practices of a savage and barbaric subset of Islam. It's banning is an avatar for a ringing refusal of a society to tolerate the entire panoply of inhuman practices that come along with it.

Georgann
Why do you hate jews so much? Haven't they been persecuted enough? All they want is there own nation free of people that demand their death. Was your mommy killed by a jew doctor too?

Bruce and YLG
Thanks for the update. I still find it hard to believe that they even allowed her to have her original license photo taken wearing a burqa. Even before 9/11 that is asinine.

13-Bravo
I believe it. It's the DMV....

;)

Clothes don't kill, people do
Banning burqas is the wrong approach. Better to make it illegal for anyone to force a woman to wear it.

If concealing clothing in public places is really dangerous, then there should be a generic law that bans all such clothing, not just burqas. This would mean that the "hoodies" which 20-something and teenagers wear indoors would be illegal. After all, one reason hoodies are worn, like at airports, is to hide from the security cameras.

Freedom
"The Americans will accept any idiocy that masquerades and calls itself a religion"

That's freedom. One man's idiocy is another man's treasure. Committing fraud or stealing in the name of Scientology _IS_ illegal in the US.

Siegfried
Who would you prosecute - Allah? Because all these b.s. kinds of religio-fascist artifacts are always somehow blamed on poor God.

Mutilating the penises of little boys? God's commandment! Burying women alive behind burqas? The will of Allah! Smoking reefer until your brain squirts out of your nostrils? The creed of Jah Rastafari!

It's always some damned excuse! :)

This is an Issue of Safety...
... Not so much an issue of religious freedom. Most banks have a sign at the front instructing customers to remove hats and or sunglasses before entering the premises. I highly doubt that policy is about denying someone's right to UV protection. It is about being able to identify a possible threat. As has been noted, a burqa can conceal gender and all manner of weapons. Considering they have been used in the middle east to conceal suicide bombers, and the fact that we are at war with these barbarians, these garments should be banned in all public environments.

Besides, women in modern societies are expected to function, not just serve as fixtures in a house. Burqa's impede hearing and sight, making them a hazard while driving. If women choose to wear them at home, they are welcome to do so. But not in public.

If you are so concerned about religious freedom, why not write an article about the little girl who was sent home from school for wearing a small crucifix around her neck.

Tommy @12:53PM
In what manner am I being obtuse? I would imagine that those Oceanic fellows you mentioned WANT (emphasis anyone’s who wants it) to wear their sheaths too. No real, "liberty loving conservative" ever desires to ban the choice of others as long as that choice does not harm other people.

If you wish to end the practice of forcing women to wear burqas I am with you. If on the other hand you simply want to ban Muslim (or any) women from wearing burqas then you and I are never going to agree. Individual rights are the hallmark of U.S. history and culture.

I freely acknowledge that I am not an expert on English and as such may occasionally err in my use of verbs, adverbs, nouns, etc. That being said let us assume that we are misunderstanding each other. I cannot and will not support any sort of ban on CHOICE in what people wear as long as it doesn’t violate decency standards as your Oceanic boys would.

Now please can the hyperbole and animus. We can hardly have a reasonable discussion if we are insulting each other. If there was something in my first response to you that you found insulting I apologize, though I would ask that you tell me what it was.

Tough One
I had to think about this one. My head hurts. I won't try that again.

My first impulse was to say that it is nobody's business what a person wears. If you want to go out today in a 108 degree Arizona sun wearing a black tent, go for it. I'll dial the ambulance now to save time. On the surface, it seems to be a personal liberty and religious freedom issue. But it isn't.

Essentially, the burqa is a coerced behavioral choice. The Moslem woman has no choice in the matter unless she doesn't want to be raped or beaten, which happens frequently in Moslem neighborhoods to Moslem women who do not wear the Burqa. Furthermore, and this is very significant, many French women are wearing burqas if they have to go into Moslem neighborhoods to avoid abuse or attack.

The only way to prevent women from being coerced into wearing something they don't want to is to ban it. Regretfully, considering my desire to protect individual and religious liberty, the burqa should be banned.

On the other hand, I've just come back from the beach and some women should be REQUIRED to wear the burqa.

Sorry, but this line of reasoning is
Huffington Post material: To begin with, every society has the right to define its own rules, and it would seem reasonable that a person should be identifiable--especially in this era of Islamic extremism.
To argue that wearing the Burqua falls in the realm of religous freedom raises the question as to how far such freedoms extend. Should the disciplines of honor killings and woman subservience also be recognized?
A society must protect itself, and if wearing the Burqa poses a problem, it should be banned.
Those who believe it a religious necessity may move to a culture holding similar opinion.
Let's hope that several other concepts of SHaria law are abandoned as well.

correction
"to Moslem women in France" I know this is true, but do not know about the situation elsewhere.

Black rags of the Taliban
are a matter of choice for women: Wear it or wish you were dead .

On a hot day (90 degrees), I saw a Mooooslim couple. He was wearing shorts, a short-sleeved shirt, sneakers, and a ball cap worn backwards. She was wearing the black rags of the taliban from head to foot and carrying a baby. I was surprised that she didn't faint.

13-bravo #24: Are they allowed out of the house alone, let alone allowed to drive?

melvin #30: ...and it will save on aid conditioning cost.

How soon will Moooslims demand that the French stop making and drinking wine? How soon will they follow the demand with death squads destroying wineries and killing winemakers?

george #68: Two cops wearing ski masks were driving around the worse part of the city in an unmarked car. Everybody that saw them thought they were driveby shooters and ducked. In the end, one was shot by a uniformed cop in a police car.

S.E.......
You really are shallow & silly.

siegfried
murder is also against the law, but that doesn't stop muzzies from killing their own daughters for so called honor killings.

Yet the left still continues to make excuses for these barbarians and their blood cult.

And the mad mullahs are demanding that some in iran need be put to death for protesting the voter fraud.

The burkha isn't an article of clothing but a symbol of control over others. Seems the males must feel threatened by their wifes and daughters having some level of freedom so they keep them living more like slaves totally under the thumbs of their barbaric and ignorant husbands who feel threatened by the idea their women might just think for themselves

Where to begin?
Cupp is so far off on so many issues its hard to decide where to refute her comments first.

Islamic women do not chose to wear the burqa, they are forced to wear it under penalty of death!! France is right to ban this symbol of oppression. Islam erases women from society and degrades them to a status lower than animals. They are murdered for the shallowest of reasons. The US should follow France's example in recognizing Islam as an oppressive, intolerant, violent, war mongering political ideology that is incompatible with western ideas of liberty, freedom and tolerance.
Ms. Cupp, have you seen "The Stoning of Sonya" (I'm sure the spelling is wrong.) yet?!!! The film is based in Iran but is accurate for EVERY muslim country.

Where to begin?
Cupp is so far off on so many issues its hard to decide where to refute her comments first.

Islamic women do not chose to wear the burqa, they are forced to wear it under penalty of death!! France is right to ban this symbol of oppression. Islam erases women from society and degrades them to a status lower than animals. They are murdered for the shallowest of reasons. The US should follow France's example in recognizing Islam as an oppressive, intolerant, violent, war mongering political ideology that is incompatible with western ideas of liberty, freedom and tolerance.
Ms. Cupp, have you seen "The Stoning of Sonya" (I'm sure the spelling is wrong.) yet?!!! The film is based in Iran but is accurate for EVERY muslim country.

13-Bravo
No hostility intended whatsoever. I absolutely celebrate your point of view and cherish where you're coming from. In this one case, I just think you are falling into a liberal trap of failing to make judgement calls or define absolutes. There is a slippery slope to your argument that, in this case, opens the hen house up to black turban wolves.

Trust me, I want to personally shoot every single sonofabitch who was responsible for motorcycle helmet laws, for example, on the tawdry basis of "well, we all pay the medical bills for irresponsible riders," or worse, "it's for their own good."

But in the case of the burqa and all it represents, I do draw the line and express my absolute unrelenting hostility to its use, practice and symbolism. I don't have a wisp of a second thought about banning it in our society outright as inimical to our principles and way of life.

Fundamentalist Islam is a malignant cancer in societys where it is allowed to take root. It's express purpose is to prevaricate, cheat, and engage in any practice up to and including murder in order to spread its virus. Look no further than the vile CAIR which uses our own laws against us on a nearly daily basis in its drive to insinuate the most virulent forms of the religion into the fabric of our society.

I love freedom too much to admit freedom's enemy into the house. Democracy is a fragile thing as the Obama administration reminds us daily.

I just emphatically believe that to admit fundamentalist Islamic practices into our body politic, whether publicly paid footbaths, tolerance for the burqa, or special courts of Shari'a law, or to do anything that elevates it to a special status is to invite the Devil to dance.

Where to begin?
Cupp is so far off on so many issues its hard to decide where to refute her comments first.

Islamic women do not chose to wear the burqa, they are forced to wear it under penalty of death!! France is right to ban this symbol of oppression. Islam erases women from society and degrades them to a status lower than animals. They are murdered for the shallowest of reasons. The US should follow France's example in recognizing Islam as an oppressive, intolerant, violent, war mongering political ideology that is incompatible with western ideas of liberty, freedom and tolerance.
Ms. Cupp, have you seen "The Stoning of Sonya" (I'm sure the spelling is wrong.) yet?!!! The film is based in Iran but is accurate for EVERY muslim country.

Ron et al.
Why does everyone assume that I am supporting the misogynistic practice of forcing women to wear burqas? What next, are you going to accuse me of supporting female genital mutilation? Maybe you think that I am in favor of suicide bombing too.

One last time; I am only talking about choice. I want women to have the right to choose to wear a burqa, or a muumuu, or a three piece suit. I oppose the practice of forcing women to wear burqas, or stoning rape victims, or any policy that relegates women to second class citizen status.

I am used to liberal imbeciles like Mario misunderstanding me. With them it is usually a lack of intelligence, although sometimes I think that they deliberately misconstrue what I say to force an argument. I expect better of conservatives.

For now on I am going to direct people to read my posts at 12:17pm, 12:30pm, 12:45pm and 1:28pm. I have made myself as clear as possible in those posts. If you cannot understand them then there is no use in my trying to explain it further.

Where to begin?
Cupp is so far off on so many issues its hard to decide where to refute her comments first.

Islamic women do not chose to wear the burqa, they are forced to wear it under penalty of death!! France is right to ban this symbol of oppression. Islam erases women from society and degrades them to a status lower than animals. They are murdered for the shallowest of reasons. The US should follow France's example in recognizing Islam as an oppressive, intolerant, violent, war mongering political ideology that is incompatible with western ideas of liberty, freedom and tolerance.
Ms. Cupp, have you seen "The Stoning of Sonya" (I'm sure the spelling is wrong.) yet?!!! The film is based in Iran but is accurate for EVERY muslim country.

DVangura
Anyone who missed that movie can view an actual Stoning right here;
http://justsickshit.com/category/torture/prisoner-torture/

~~~~~~~~~~~

Those to immigrate to another Country have a duty to adopt the culture of their new Nation and strive to become good citizens.

If they can't or do not want to blend in with the people of a new Nation they have no right to inflict their customs upon the citizens of other Countries and don't belong there.

Those who lawfully immigrate to America intent upon joining us as an American and working to help us build a better America are welcome.

Those who come here to form ethnic ghettos and attempt to force their culture upon Americans are not welcome anywhere. By their own actions they label themselves inferior to mainstream Americans and invite discrimination.

Tommy @1:52PM
I agree with you completely concerning Fundamentalist Islam. I personally will include so-called “moderate Muslims” in that assessment until they begin to speak out against the evils done by Iran’s leaders and Muslim terrorists. They are the only ones who can stop those that the moderates claim have hijacked their religion.

I also agree that it is outrageous that liberals do not opposed Islamic religious practices in public places the way they do Christian practices. One supposes that once the ACLU learns that a variation of the Ten Commandments are part of Islamic beliefs they will stop insisting that they be removed from schools and city halls.

I just fear allowing the government to write laws concerning what we wear.

Lilly
I am not a conservative. You make yourself look silly if you think you can make yourself look good by playing off of my characterizations of conservatism. You can only make fun of admissions about the nature of conservatives if they come from conservatives not conservative critics.

Burqa
In this country as it is in France, covering up ones face is a security matter.Criminals cover up their faces in order not be identified and no Western country can afford to have a large portion of their population go around with their faces covered.
I suggest if they don't like it they should go back to a place where it is acceptable for whatever reason. Our women have to do it when they go there to follow their rules and I would suggest that they do the same when they come here or any other country where covering ones face is not acceptable.

Burqas represent servantship and a loss
of identity. They appear uncomfortable prevent-ing individuality. All must march to the same drumbeat! Sad! Being a free Spirit, my heart goes out to those primitive Islam practices. Some Muslim women can't drive a car, leave their homes without a male escort, can't show an ankle thus, have to live in tents and some can't even be schooled?! The men apparently have sex hangups. They might lose control if they see a female leg or hair, Ha! Of course if the wife, trapped in a marriage, loves another man she must be stoned, tortued and murdered because of the family honor! The man gets off scotfree, only the adulterous wife slave is sadistically punished. Honor? What about coldblooded abuse of their wives, Mothers, sisters, daughters. Guess their family females are sub'humans to them to be cruely disposed of just to protect their vanity/egos and pride?! That attitude is sick and beyond understanding! Why aren't they ashamed of such evil deeds and outlaw stoning?

HOW ABOUT A STRIPPER IN A BURQA?

.....LOLO1 & LILLY ...

.....Picture this ...a stripper comes on stage in a full burqa and a tambourine ...then to the beat of tribal drums she gyrates her hips and peels the burqa off one tantalyzing piece at a time until she is in her birthday suit ...

.....How do you think that would go over in the Muslim community .....COLOSSUS

Scientology
Freedom to commit fraud is religious?
"French prosecutor on Monday recommended a Paris court should dissolve the Church of Scientology's French branch when it rules on charges of fraud against the organisation."(Reuters 15 Juin 2009)
Should we also ban Scientology as a Ponze scheme rather than a religion?


stripper in a burqa
It would be more funny if she had another burqa beneath the first ;)

Ms Cupp
If the head-to-toe burqua was common in America, I suspect your attitude towards it would not be so magnanimus. I have never seen it in America even one time.

My understanding is that this burqua is a cultural practise not a religious one. I am quite sure the Koran does not mandate that a woman be covered from head-to-toe.

There is something very troubling about a woman needing to cover herself to appear in public. Can you imagine the inconvenience? Is this her choice or her husbands? You appear to think you know the answer to this question.

If this practice became common in America, wouldn't Republicans be the first to condemn it?

Whose Choice?
Whose choice is it to wear the burqua, the woman's or her husband?

If Islamic men decided collectively they would prefer to see their wives in a nice flower print summer dress, don't you think their wives would happily oblige?

The burqua is a symbol of the pathological sexual insecurity of Islamic men.

Tommy and 13Bravo
In the world of make believe there are no rules and everything works just swell. The real world is about money and power. Burquas are about power. Helmets are about money. You are peeing into the wind. Grown ups understand that laws are necessary to orderliness and safety because you are not here all by your self. The more juvenile and lawless the society the greater the increase in the number of laws and their oppressiveness. By the way, Jesus has only two laws. No tyranny there.

tuffone3 @9:17PM
I do not recall either Tommy or myself stating that we did not want any rules. We simply do not want the government to micromanage our lives. I do not care if helmets are about money or chocolate kisses. The government has no place telling me how to protect myself.

If I chose to take the risk of not wearing a helmet or a seatbelt it is no one’s business but mine. Perhaps you enjoy having your nanny, Uncle Sam wiping your butt and tying your shoes for you but I am an adult and can look out for myself.

Your theory that a society being juvenile and lawless results in oppressive laws does not match reality. Oppressive laws are created by tyrants wishing to exert control over private citizens. It has nothing to do with ending crime and everything to do with criminalizing behavior that the state feels is a threat to their control. The implementation of minor laws criminalizing personal choice (such as not wearing a helmet or seatbelt) is just one step towards creating more and more oppressive laws.

BTW “grown ups” do not go by childish handles like tuffone3. Only people living in the “world of make believe” feel the need to use such silly appellations. Real tough people do not feel the need to say that they are tough. Their toughness speaks for itself.

Women's Choice?
Hooray for the French President. At least, he has the guts to stand up and say that it's ridiculous for women to walk around in this day and age with their faces covered and unidentifiable in the heat of day, not by choice in many cases, but because they fear being beheaded by their husbands or beaten. So, is it really a choice or is it out of fear? Thank God, the American women stood up for their rights and freedoms or they'd probably still be shunned by society just because they divorced a husband who threated to do harm to to his wife. At least, we can identify those women and give a description if they are missing or kidnapped, but who can identify anything about a woman whose face is concealed and goes missing? What about plain old safety? What about not living in fear or afraid to admit it so they do what they're told and hide behind religion to protect themselves probably in quite a few cases.

Sarkozy right, S.E. Cupp wrong
Not much of what the French do is right, but I firmly support Sarkozy's ban on the burqa, regardless of his motives.

Cupp is right
Sarko has taken the coward's approach to this "problem". If we took the same tack here we would be regulating Amish dress, or that of orthodox Jewry. Rather than limit immigration from North Africa and expelling illegals, he would rather keep their cheap labor to support France's welfare state. It takes no courage whatsoever in a rabidly secular state as "Fwance" to come out against a piece of clothing associated with religious devotion.

REAL oppression of women ...
Thank you for making this point: if you want to fight women's oppression, why ban them from wearing something they may want to? Especially when you're a coward toward fighting real oppression in the Middle East? This move is a dangerous denial of religious freedoms. What one person may think of as oppression of women may be another woman's treasure - for example, motherhood and being a stay-at-home wife is what some women prefer to do. But some few radical feminists claim marriage and motherhood are oppressive to women - are we going to outlaw that too in France? How about in the US?

Burqa is related to national security
This is clearly a cultural and ideological war, with terrorism simply as one tool: terrorism is a means to an end for the Muslims, not the end in itself. They murder to impose a manner of living succinctly represented by the burqa. It is childish and stupid for Cupp to not have thought through the links between the political, cultural, and ideological aspects of Islam. In doing so she has created for herself a cartoonish foe of the type that ties down women on railroad tracks simply to be dastardly while he twirls his moustaches. The stated goal of Islamic terror is to destroy the enemies of Islam, in the near term restore absolute Arab/Islamic hegemony in the middle east, and in the longer term impose a world-wide caliphate and sharia law. The burqa is a symbol of all of these goals. It is also an example of one-way multiculturalism that is at the causal heart of France's and the UK's woes, woes soon to be ours in the United States as well if ignorant and appeasing views like Cupp's prevail. If symbolism like that of the burqa is so unimportant, then she should attempt to walk around uncovered in a place in which sharia law and Muslim ideology prevail; she would likely encounter a lesson in the folly of one-way multiculturalism. Sarkozy might have not told the full story about the reasons to ban the burqa, but this is only because France's internal situation is already tenuous due to the demographic vise-like grip Muslims, who have like Muslims across the world shown a marked tendency towards violence and rioting, have in many parts of that country. Sarkozy was exactly correct, however, in the need to outlaw this symbol of Islam. To Cupp, culture and terror are two separate issues not to be conflated. However she could not be in greater error.
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